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The Authenticity of I am the city of Knowledge, and Ali is the door of it


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#1 OFFLINE   Efendi

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 04:04 PM

Enjoy.

http://www.thegdi.or...ity-of-i-am-the

#2 OFFLINE   Umer Bin Alas

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:29 AM

its not opening ya shaikeh
Behind Enemy Lines I won't Say A Single Word --------------------

#3 OFFLINE   Efendi

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 08:38 AM

Brother, check again, it's fine for me.
Try:

http://www.thegdi.org/

section-------Sectarianism---------The authenticity of "I am the city of knowledge, and Ali is a door of it."

#4 OFFLINE   Ameen

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 02:24 PM

View PostEfendi, on 15 June 2010 - 04:04 PM, said:

<br />Enjoy.<br /><br /><a href='http://www.thegdi.or...ity-of-i-am-the' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow'>http://www.thegdi.or...;/a><br />
<br /><br /><br />Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear, beloved brother. Give me the name of one Ahle-Sunnah scholar who has a teeny weeny bit of doubt in the authenticity of this Hadith [ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the door of it ] This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence. This is something to think about! Wassalaam.

Edited by Ameen, 17 June 2010 - 02:26 PM.


#5 OFFLINE   Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:15 PM

View PostAmeen, on 17 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

<br />&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear, beloved brother. Give me the name of one Ahle-Sunnah scholar who has a teeny weeny bit of doubt in the authenticity of this Hadith [ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the door of it ] This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence. This is something to think about! Wassalaam.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

Salam Ameen,
                            You want one name of Ahle-Sunnah Scholar who has doubted its authenticity rather many has rejected it as being shia fabrication.

I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate.

It was related by al-Hakim, at-Tabarani and others. It was also related by at-Tirmidhi with the wording, I am the House of Wisdom, and Ali is its Door.
Albani declared the Hadith to be Mawdoo (fabricated). Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text. Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected). Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable. Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame li Ahkam al-Quran: This Hadith is Batil (false)!  Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie. Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths. Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. Amongst others who dismissed the Hadith are Abu Zur`ah, Abu Hatim, Yahya bin Saeed, etc.

This Hadith is narrated by many unreliable chains. These Isnads (chains of transmission) were deemed to be unreliable because they contain Shia, liars, and people accused of lying.
You said,,,This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence...
I say Abu Bkar9r.a) was made Ameer-e-Hajj non by Prophet(pbuh) himself and Imam of all present while Porpphet(pbuh) was seriously ill,just before Prphet(pbuh) passed away.This is clear cut superiorty of Abu Bkar(r.a) over the rest of Ummah of that time and no generation can supersede Prophet(pbuh) generation..isnt it Ameen?
Want more information i am here for you.Thanks
Wasalam

#6 OFFLINE   Efendi

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 01:02 PM

The Authenticity of I am the city of Knowledge, and Ali is the door of it
By Brother Abdullah Ibn Abi Efendi

All Praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all mankind.

In this short treatise I will discuss a well-known narration attributed to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) that is often cited as evidence of the superiority of Ali, and his reverence by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم). The first narration says I am the city of Knowledge, and Ali is the door of it while another one says I am the house of wisdom and Ali is a door of it. The meaning of these two narrations are ambiguous to an extent, and the followers of the Shi`a religion have perpetuated several meaning and interpretations of these narrations. In addition, I will endeavour to look at the authenticity of the above mentioned narrations in order to show what the followers of the Shi`a religion rely on in their argumentation.
Ali did not perceive himself as intellectually superior
I would like to point to one important narration which is often overlooked by shi`as. Ali did not perceive himself to be intellectually superior, or accredited knowledge to himself. This is evident from Shi`a sources;
When people went to Amir al-muminin in a deputation and complained to him through what they had to say against `Uthman, and requested him to speak to him on their behalf and to admonish him for their sake, he went to see him and said: The people are behind me and they have made me an ambassador between you and themselves; but by Allah, I do not know what to say to you. I know nothing which you do not know, nor can I lead you to any matter of which you are not aware. You certainly know what we know, we have not come to know anything before you which we could tell you; nor did we learn anything in secret which we should convey to you1.
This is reiterated in Hadith Literature which is accepted by the majority of Muslims;
Narrated Ali: We have nothing except the Book of Allah and this written paper from the Prophet (where-in is written:) Medina is a sanctuary from the Air Mountain to such and such a place, and whoever innovates in it an heresy or commits a sin, or gives shelter to such an innovator in it will incur the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, none of his compulsory or optional good deeds of worship will be accepted. And the asylum (of protection) granted by any Muslim is to be secured (respected) by all the other Muslims; and whoever betrays a Muslim in this respect incurs the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds of worship will be accepted, and whoever (freed slave) befriends (take as masters) other than his manumitters without their permission incurs the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds of worship will be accepted.
There is further evidence which indicates that Ali did not posses Knowledge that was unknown to the Muslim community about Islam, as indicated in;
I used to get emotional urethral discharges frequently and felt shy to ask Allahs Apostle about it. So I requested Al-Miqdad bin Al-Aswad to ask (the Prophet) about it. Al-Miqdad asked him and he replied, On has to perform ablution (after it)2. (This hadith was also narrated by shia al-Hurr al-Amili in Wasailu shia 1/278/№7 (731), and Abu Jafar At-Toose in al-Istibsar 1/91/№2 (292).)
In addition to the above quoted narration, we raise the question of whether it is plausible to believe that all knowledge came through Ali (the gate) to the Prophet (the city) (صلى الله عليه وسلم). Therefore if he was a gate for knowledge, why do we see him coming to city of knowledge from another gate al-Miqdad?

Opinion of scholars on Ali being the gate of knowledge
Those who said its authentic
Hakim in his Mostadrak.
Those who said its good (hasan)
Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, hafidh al-Alai, Suyuti, Sakhawe, Shawkani.
Those who said that its weak, fabricated or rejected.
Yahya ibn Muin said about this hadith: There is no base for it3. Khatib in his Tareeh (11/205) narrated that ibn Muin said: Lie, no base for it, extremely rejected. In Sualat li ibn Junayd (185) written that ibn Muin said: Lie, no base for it. (Note: It is mentioned elsewhere that he accepted this hadith.
Bukhari said: Rejected (munkar), there is nothing from authentic in it4.
Tirmizi said: Qareeb (strange, odd) and rejected (munkar)5. (Tirmizi said that right after he narrated this hadith in his Sunnan, Abdulhusayn quoted him in al-Murajiat, but as usual omitted his opinion, as non suitable).
Ibn Jawzi said: Hadith isnt authentic even if consider all ways of transmission6.
Ibn Hibban said: This story has no base from prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم)7.
Uqayli in Duafa8 said: There is no authentic hadith with such text.
Daraqutni said: Hadith is mixed, not steady9.
Dhahabi ruled that its fabricated10.
Shaykhul Islam ibn Taymiyah ruled that its fabricated11.
Allama Abdurrahman al-Mualami ruled that its fabricated12.
Allama shaykh Nasir ad-deen al-Albani ruled that its fabricated13.
Ibn Adi ruled that its fabricated14.
Ibn al-Arabi said its false (batil) in Akhamul Quran (5/104)
Muhammad ibn Darwish al-Hoot included it in his Asna mattalib (n 390), and cited there opinions of Tirmizi and Bukhari.
Nawavi said hadith is false in Tahzib asma wa lughat (1/480)15.
Abul Muhasen Muhammad ibn Khalil al-Qawukchi (القاوقجي) included it in his al-Luli mawsua fima la asla lahu aw bil asli mawdua (n 84).
Jazari ruled that this hadith is fabricated16.
Narration from ibn Abbas.
Route 1
It was reported by al-Hakim in Mustadrak (4637), Tabarani in al-Kabir, and Tabari in Tahzib al-athar via chain: Abu Salt Abdussalam ibn Saleh reported to me Abu Moawiyah from al-Amash from Mujahid from ibn Abbas.

Dhahabi in Talkhis said its fabrication. Al-Heythami in Majmau zawaid (14670) said: Reported by Tabarani, in the chain Abdussalam ibn Salih al-Harwe and hes weak.
This chain is extremely weak
Abdussalam ibn Salih was accused. Abul Hasan Ali ibn Muhammad ibn al-Arraq al-Kinani in Tanziru sharia (1/79/#166) said: Abdussalam ibn Salih Abu Salt al-Harwi was accused in lie by more than one scholar. Abu Abdullah al-Hakim in al-Madkhal ila sahih (#139) said: Abdussalam ibn Salih ibn Sulayman Abu Salt al-Harwi. Narrated from Khammad ibn Ziyad, Abu Moawiyah, Abbad ibn al-Awam and other rejected stories. Same opinion was quoted by Abu Nuyam al-Isfahani in Kitabu duafa (#140).

Uqayli said about this narrator: Rafidi habidh, ibn Adi said: Accused. Nasai said: Not tuthful. Daraqutni said: Habidh rafidi, was accused in fabrication of hadith: Faith is by accepting by heart17.

Zakariya Saji said: He narrated munkar stories, and he was weak due to their opinion. And it was reported from Uqayli that he said about Abu Salt: Liar. Naqash said: Narrated manakir. Muhammad ibn Takhar said: Liar18.

Hafidh al-Khalili in Irshad (3/873) said: He wasnt strong due to their opinion. Imam Zeylai al-Hanafi in Nasbu rayi (1/345), ibn Rajab in Fathkul bare (6/412) and ibn Hajar in Tahrij ahadeth kashaf (2/465) said: Abandoned.
Abu Moawiyah turned from narrating this hadith Dc. Khalifat al-Kare in his Tahrij hadith Ana madinatul ilm wrote: Ibn Mukhriz narrated from Yahya ibn Muin: It was reported to me by ibn Numayr, which said: Abu Moawiyah use to narrate it in the past, and then turned away from narrating it19
Same was noticed in Usudul qaba (1/794).
Another problem in this chain is al-Amash. He was truthful narrator, but awell known mudalith. And he narrated this hadith from Mujahid in anana form, without making it clear. If he heard it himself or not.
Yaqub ibn Shayba said: I asked from Ali al-Madini: How many ahadeth al-Amash hear from Mujahid? He answered: Narrations (of al-Amash from Mujahid) are not established unless (al-Amash while narrating from him) said: I heard (him saying). Narrations of al-Amash from Mujahid, are going via Yahya al-Qattan20
Yahya ibn Sayed al-Qattan said: I wrote narrations of al-Amash from Mujahid, all of them were connected by him, (he) didnt hear from him (anything)21.
Ibn Muin said: Hearing of Mujahid by al-Amash, nothing from what he narrated from him, he heard from him, without doubt they are disconnected, mudalis22.
Route 2
It was reported by al-Hakim in Mustadrak (4638) via chain: Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Tamem al-Qantare narrated to me al-Hussain ibn Fahm narrated to me Muhammad ibn Yahya ibn Durayth narrated to me Muhammad ibn Jafar al-Faydhi narrated to me Abu Moawiyah from al-Amash from Mujahid from ibn Abbas.

This chain is weak. We have already mentioned Al-Amash from Mujahid. The narrator Muhammad al-Qantare, ibn al-Fooras said that there is softness in him23. And the narrator Al-Hussain ibn Fahm. Daraqutni said about him: Hes not strong. Same opinion was reported from Hakim himself24.
Route 3
It was transmitted by ibn Asakir in Tarih madinatul dimashk (42/379) via chai: Rajah ibn Salamah reported to me Abu Moawiyah ad-Darer from al-Amash from Mujahid from ibn Abbas.

I already talked about link al-Amash from Mujahid, but this chain has another defect, thats Rajah ibn Salamah. Ibn Hajar in Lisanul mizan (2/456) quoted ibn Jawzi, which accused this narrator in stealing of ahadeth.
Route 4
It was reported by ibn Asakir (42/379) via chain: Abu Sayed al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn Salih al-Adawe reported to me Hasan ibn Ali ibn Rashid reported to me Abu Moawiyah reported to me al-Amash from Mujahid from ibn Abbas.

The above route has al-Amash from Mujahid in the narration, and in addition to it chain weakened by Abu Sayed al-Adawe. Ibn Jawzi in al-Mawdua (1/354) said: Liar. Ibn Adi accused him in fabrication of ahadeth. Daraqutni said hes abandoned25.
Route 5
In Tarih madinatul dimashk (42/379) via chain: Ahmad ibn Salamah Abu Amr al-Jurjani reported to me Abu Muawiyah from al-Amash from Mujahid from ibn Abbas.

The problem here is with tadlis of al-Amash which is next to Abu Moawiyah.

Ibn Adi said about Ahmad ibn Salamah: Related false stories from reliable (truthful narrators) and steal ahadeth26.
Route 6
In Tarih madinatul dimashk (42/379-380) via chain: Sayed ibn Uqba Abul Fatkh al-Koofe reported to me Sulaiman al-Amash from Mujahid from ibn Abbas.

Ibn Adi said: Sayed is unknown, not truthful27.
Route 7
In Tarih madinatul dimashk (42/380) via chain: Umar ibn Ismail ibn Mujalad narrated to me Abu Moawiyah from al-Amash from Mujahid from ibn Abbas.

Problem in tadlis of al-Amash, and Umar ibn Ismail. Yahya ibn Muin accused Umar ibn Ismail in lie. Daraqutni and Nasai said hes abandoned. Ibn Adi said he use to steal ahadeth28.
Route 8
In Tarih madinatul dimashk (42/381) via chain: Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Baghdade Abu Muhammad al-Faqeh, and there was something in his tongue, reported to me Abu Moawiyah from al-Amash from Mujahid from ibn Abbas.

Its interesting note there was something in his tongue. It can either mean that he had some defects in his speech, like stuttering or lisping, either it was be hint that his speech wasnt truthful, or doesnt look like speech of truthful. Allah knows best. More importantly this chain also includes Al-Amash from Mujahid. In addition to that this Jafar ibn Muhammad was accused in stealing of ahadeth29.

He was also indirectly accused by Khatib al-Bagdade. He (rahimuhullah) narrated this hadith via this chain, and said: No one reliable narrated it from Abu Moawiyah30, by these words Khatib pointed that this Jafar was not reliable. Dhahabi in Mizanul itidal (1/415/#1525) noticed that there in suspense in this narrator. Then he quoted this hadith and said its fabrication.
Route 9
Transmitted by ibn Jawzi in al-Mawdua (1/352). Chain contain same problem as previous in tadlis of al-Amash and his narration from Mujahid. Another defect is Ismail ibn Muhammad ibn Yusuf. Ibn Hibban said: He stole ahadeth and fabricated chains, its not permitted to rely on him31.
Route 10
Reported by ibn Mardaweyh via chain: al-Hasan ibn Uthman from Mahmod ib Khadash from Abu Moawiyah.

Ibn Jawzi cited it in al-Mawdua (1/352) and at page 354 quoted ibn Adi saying: He use to fabricate ahadeth.
Conclusion

Everyone that has narrated this hadith has done so from Abu Moawiyah, and he stole It from Abu Salt. This is evident from;

Abul Qasem Hamza ibn Yusuf al-Jurjani in his Tareeh Jurjan (1/65) quoted ibn Adi saying: This hadith is known by Abu Salt al-Harwi, Ahmad ibn Salamah and group of weak (narrators) stole it from him. And it was also reported that Ibn Adi said: This hadith fabricated, its known as (fabrication) of Abu Salt (Abdussalam ibn Salih), and it was narrated by group of people that stolen this hadith from him. Abu Khatim ibn Hibban said: No base for this hadith from prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم), and that was not narrated by ibn Abbas, or Mujahid, or al-Amash, and this isnt hadith of Abu Moawiyah. Each one who narrated hadith with similar text, stole it from Abu Salt, and fabricated chain of narrators. Imam Ahmad was asked about this hadith, and he said: May Allah whip Abu Salt32.

Narration from Jabir
Route 1
It was reported by al-Hakim in Mustadrak (4639) via chain: Ahmad ibn Abdullah ibn Yazeed al-Harrani narrated to Abdurrazaq narrated to me ath-Thawri from Abdullah ibn Uthman ibn Khaitham from Abdurrahman ibn Uthman at-Tayme which said: I heard Jabir ibn Abdullah. (hadith).

Ahmad ibn Abdullah al-Harrani is liar, as said Dhahabi in Talkhis.
Route 2
It was narrated as a part of bigger narration by ibn Asakir in his history (42/382-383) via chain that contains Ahmad ibn Abdullah ibn Yazeed al-Mawadab. Ibn Adi said he use to fabricate ahadeth33.
Route 3
Contains Ahmad ibn Tahir ibn Kharmala. Ibn Jawzi in al-Mawdua (1/354) quoted ibn Adi saying: From the most mendacious people.
Narrated from Ali
Route 1
It was reported by Abu Nuaym in Marifatus sahaba, Ajurri in Shariah, Tabari in Tahzib al-athar, and also present in Fadhailu sahaba (n 1081) via chain: Muhammad ibn Umar ibn ar-Roome (or simply Roome) narrated to me Sherik from Salamah ibn Kuhayl from as-Sanabehe from Ali (hadith).

Tirmizi in Sunnan reported it via almost the same chain, but there between Salamah and Sanabehe is other narrator - Suwayd ibn Qafalah.
This chain is weak
Narrator Muhammad ibn Umar ibn ar-Roome is weak. Abu Dawud said hes weak. Abu Dhurah said there was softness in him34. Ibn Hajar in Taqrib (6169) also noticed softness in this narrator. Tirmizi also accused this narrator by his saying: Its not known that anyone from truthful narrated this from Sherik. The other narrator is Sherik ibn Abdullah. This narrator was truthful, but erred in many instances. Ibrahim ibn Sayed al-Jawhari said: Sherik erred in 400 ahadeth. Juzajani said: He has a bad memory, his narrations are mixed. Ali ibn Yahya ibn Sayed hold opinion that hes extremely weak. Ibn Mubarak said: Ahadeth of Sherik are nothing. Daraqutni said: He wasnt strong in those ahadeth that he narrated alone35. Lastly this chain is broken. Salamah didnt hear from Sanabehe36, as Daraqutni said37.
Route 2
It was reported by ibn Asakir in Tarih madinatul dimashk (42/378) via chain: Suwayd ibn Sayed reported to me Sherik from Salamah ibn Kuhayl from Sanabihe from Ali.

In addition to the previous problems mentioned, here we have Suwayd ibn Sayed. Scholars differed in his grading. Bukhari said: His ahadeth are extremely rejected. Nasai said hes weak. Ibn Muin accused him in lie. Two different views were reported from imam Ahmad. Ibn Jawzi narrated that imam said: Matrook al-hadith38.
Route 3
Narrated by ibn Jawzi in al-Mawdua (1/349-350) and by Abu Nuaym in Hilliyatul awliyah (1/64) via chain: Abdulhamid ibn Bahr reported to me Sherik from Salamah ibn Kuhayl from Sanabehe from Ali.

Here we have Abdulhamid ibn Bahr in addition to the previously mentioned problem with Sherik and gap between Salamah and Sanabehe. Ibn Hibban said about him: [he] Used to steal ahadeth, and narrate from thiqat narrations that werent their ahadeth, its not permitted to rely on him39.
Route 4
It was reported by ibn Mardaweyh and quote by ibn Jawzi in al-Mawdua (1/350). Narrator Muhammad ibn Qays is unknown, as said ibn Jawzi.
Route 5
Abu Nuaym in Hilliyatul awliyah (1/64) said that it was also narrated by Asbagha ibn Nabatah from Ali. Abu Bakr ibn Ayash said Asbagh was liar. Ibn Hibban and Nasai said hes abandoned40.

Narration from Anas
Route 1
It was reported by Muhammad ibn Hamzah al-Faqeh in his Ahadeth (2/21) via chain: Muhammad ibn Jafar ash-Shashe Abu Salih Ahmad ibn Mazid Mansur ibn Sulayman al-Yame Ibrahim ibn Sabiq Asim ibn Ali his father Khumayd Tawel from him in elevated form.

Chain is weak. After Asim ibn Ali, all narrators are unknown. Father of Asim thats Ali ibn Asim ibn Suhayb al-Wasete, and hes weak. Ibn Muin said hes nothing. Nasai noticed that he was abandoned. Bukhari said: Not strong in their view, they use to criticize him41.
Route 2
Narrated by ibn Asakir in his history (45/321) in this form: I am city of knowledge, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman are fence of it, and Ali is a gate.

Ibn Asakir himself said: Extremely rejected by text and chain.

________________________________________________________
1 Nahjul balagha hutbah 163

2 Volume 1, Book 4, Number 178.

3 See Mawdudi Rasail wa masail 3/169.

4 Maqasid al-hasanah 189

5 Sunnan 4089.

6 al-Mawdua 1/353.

7 Majroheen 2/94.

8 3/150.

9 al-Ilal 3/248.

10 Mizanul itidal 1/415, 3/668; Talkhis al-mustadrak 3/126.

11 Minhaju sunnah 7/515.

12 Hashiyatul fawaid al-majmua p 349.

13 Daif al-jamius sagher 1322.

14 al-Mawdua 1/354.

15 Mahmood Shukri Aloose Tuhfa isna ashariyah p 203.

16 Mahmood Shukri Aloose Tuhfa isna ashariyah p 203.

17 Mizanul itidal 2/616/#5051.

18 Tahzib at tahzib 6/286.

19 Marifatul rijal riwayat ibn Mukhriz 1/79.

20 Tahzib at tahzib 4/197

21 Ibn Abu Khatim Jarh wa tadil 1/241

22 Rawayatu ibn Tahman #59.

23 Lisanul mizan 5/49.

24 Mizanul itidal 1/545/ n 2041.

25 Mizanul itidal 1/506/ n 1904.

26 al-Mawdua 1/354.

27 Mizanul itidal 2/153/ n 3243; al-Mawdua 1/354.

28 Mizanul itidal 3/182/ n 6055.

29 al-Mawdua 1/354.

30 Tarih al-Baghdade 7/172.

31 al-Mawdua 1/354.

32 al-Mawdua 1/354

33 Mizanul itidal 1/109/ n 429; al-Mawdua 1/354

34 Mizanul itidal 3/668/ n 8002.

35 Mizanul itidal 2/270-271.

36 Ibn al-Arraq al-Kinani Tanziru sharia marfoa 1/377/ n 103.

37 al-Mawdua 1/353.

38 Mizanul itidal 2/248/ n 3621.

39 al-Mawdua 1/353.

40 Mizanul itidal 1/271/ n1014.

41 Mizanul itidal 3/135/ n 5873.

#7 OFFLINE   Ameen

Ameen

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 07:00 PM

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 17 June 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;

View PostAmeen, on 17 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear, beloved brother. Give me the name of one Ahle-Sunnah scholar who has a teeny weeny bit of doubt in the authenticity of this Hadith [ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the door of it ] This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence. This is something to think about! Wassalaam.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Salam Ameen,&lt;br /&gt;You want one name of Ahle-Sunnah Scholar who has doubted its authenticity rather many has rejected it as being shia fabrication.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &quot;I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It was related by al-Hakim, at-Tabarani and others. It was also related by at-Tirmidhi with the wording, &quot;I am the House of Wisdom, and Ali is its Door.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;Albani declared the Hadith to be Mawdoo (fabricated). Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text. Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected). Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable. Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame' li Ahkam al-Quran: &quot;This Hadith is Batil (false)!&quot;Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie. Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths. Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. Amongst others who dismissed the Hadith are Abu Zur`ah, Abu Hatim, Yahya bin Saeed, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This Hadith is narrated by many unreliable chains. These Isnads (chains of transmission) were deemed to be unreliable because they contain Shia, liars, and people accused of lying. &lt;br /&gt;You said,,,This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence...&lt;br /&gt;I say Abu Bkar9r.a) was made Ameer-e-Hajj non by Prophet(pbuh) himself and Imam of all present while Porpphet(pbuh) was seriously ill,just before Prphet(pbuh) passed away.This is clear cut superiorty of Abu Bkar(r.a) over the rest of Ummah of that time and no generation can supersede Prophet(pbuh) generation..isnt it Ameen?&lt;br /&gt;Want more information i am here for you.Thanks&lt;br /&gt;Wasalam&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brothers.Let me say this again.I said Give me one Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath well known scholar who doubts the authenticity of this Hadith.I don't want your bias opinion.I want the opinion of the scholars.You have D.M. Digital Sunni T.V, Noor T.V, Iqra T.V, Ummah Channel, Takbeer T.V and so on. Not one single scholar has come on these channels and put a bit of doubt about this hadith. On many occasions this hadith has been mentioned on these channels by Sunni Scholars and it's authenticity has been proven from the authentic books. So I don't know where you boys are coming from and what you are trying to prove.As far as superiority is concerned you boys need to sort out who is superior. Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] or Hazrath Umar [ra]? The first was made Imam by the Prophet [pbuh]. OK! Then why was there any need for the secret meeting in Sakeefa for which the Prophet's [pbuh] funeral was ignored? Why was there any need to chose who is going to govern after Muhammed [pbuh] when the Prophet [pbuh[ had already done the job of selecting/making Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]? Why is Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] superior above all when it is said about Hazrath Umar [ra] that he had the qualities of a messenger? [Aghar-Mere-Baad-Koi-Nabi-Hotha-Tho-Woh-Umar-Hotha] Boys! you really need to sort yourselves out.Early on you mentioned Hazrath Ali's [ra] saying that Hazrath Umar [ra] was the best of Ummah. What is going on here? Wassalaam.

Edited by Ameen, 23 June 2010 - 07:03 PM.


#8 OFFLINE   Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 07:27 PM

View PostAmeen, on 23 June 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

<br />

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 17 June 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;

View PostAmeen, on 17 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear, beloved brother. Give me the name of one Ahle-Sunnah scholar who has a teeny weeny bit of doubt in the authenticity of this Hadith [ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the door of it ] This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence. This is something to think about! Wassalaam.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Salam Ameen,&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;You want one name of Ahle-Sunnah Scholar who has doubted its authenticity rather many has rejected it as being shia fabrication.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;quot;I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;It was related by al-Hakim, at-Tabarani and others. It was also related by at-Tirmidhi with the wording, &amp;quot;I am the House of Wisdom, and Ali is its Door.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Albani declared the Hadith to be Mawdoo (fabricated). Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text. Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected). Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable. Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame' li Ahkam al-Quran: &amp;quot;This Hadith is Batil (false)!&amp;quot;Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie. Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths. Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. Amongst others who dismissed the Hadith are Abu Zur`ah, Abu Hatim, Yahya bin Saeed, etc.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;This Hadith is narrated by many unreliable chains. These Isnads (chains of transmission) were deemed to be unreliable because they contain Shia, liars, and people accused of lying. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;You said,,,This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence...&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;I say Abu Bkar9r.a) was made Ameer-e-Hajj non by Prophet(pbuh) himself and Imam of all present while Porpphet(pbuh) was seriously ill,just before Prphet(pbuh) passed away.This is clear cut superiorty of Abu Bkar(r.a) over the rest of Ummah of that time and no generation can supersede Prophet(pbuh) generation..isnt it Ameen?&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Want more information i am here for you.Thanks&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Wasalam&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brothers.Let me say this again.I said Give me one Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath well known scholar who doubts the authenticity of this Hadith.I don't want your bias opinion.I want the opinion of the scholars.You have D.M. Digital Sunni T.V, Noor T.V, Iqra T.V, Ummah Channel, Takbeer T.V and so on. Not one single scholar has come on these channels and put a bit of doubt about this hadith. On many occasions this hadith has been mentioned on these channels by Sunni Scholars and it's authenticity has been proven from the authentic books. So I don't know where you boys are coming from and what you are trying to prove.As far as superiority is concerned you boys need to sort out who is superior. Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] or Hazrath Umar [ra]? The first was made Imam by the Prophet [pbuh]. OK! Then why was there any need for the secret meeting in Sakeefa for which the Prophet's [pbuh] funeral was ignored? Why was there any need to chose who is going to govern after Muhammed [pbuh] when the Prophet [pbuh[ had already done the job of selecting/making Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]? Why is Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] superior above all when it is said about Hazrath Umar [ra] that he had the qualities of a messenger? [Aghar-Mere-Baad-Koi-Nabi-Hotha-Tho-Woh-Umar-Hotha] Boys! you really need to sort yourselves out.Early on you mentioned Hazrath Ali's [ra] saying that Hazrath Umar [ra] was the best of Ummah. What is going on here? Wassalaam.<br />
<br /><br /><br />
Salam Ameen.
                          Having given a list of Grand Grand Sunnis Scholars like Imam Bukhari(r.a) still you want a proof?are you want me to say Milk is Black rather white?
Brother Efendi has refuted it through scientific way from yours own SHIA sources which you always called yours own sources utter lies and garbage,Indeed which are...
Yours hate for Abu Bkar(r.a) and Umer(r.a) is day light shined to us.
Anyhow this not the case with Ali(r.a) which called them the best men in Ummah after Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) in yours own books.

I will give you a scan copy let see what Imam Baqar(r.a) has to say about Sheikhian Karimian(r.a)

here you go...............
http://img193.images...ronabubakr.jpg/

Ameen you need to sort yourself out instead.....
Wasalam.

#9 OFFLINE   Ameen

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 02:13 PM

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 23 June 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

<br />

View PostAmeen, on 23 June 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 17 June 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;

View PostAmeen, on 17 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear, beloved brother. Give me the name of one Ahle-Sunnah scholar who has a teeny weeny bit of doubt in the authenticity of this Hadith [ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the door of it ] This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence. This is something to think about! Wassalaam.&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Salam Ameen,&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;You want one name of Ahle-Sunnah Scholar who has doubted its authenticity rather many has rejected it as being shia fabrication.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;quot;I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate.&amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;It was related by al-Hakim, at-Tabarani and others. It was also related by at-Tirmidhi with the wording, &amp;amp;quot;I am the House of Wisdom, and Ali is its Door.&amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Albani declared the Hadith to be Mawdoo (fabricated). Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text. Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected). Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable. Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame' li Ahkam al-Quran: &amp;amp;quot;This Hadith is Batil (false)!&amp;amp;quot;Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie. Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths. Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. Amongst others who dismissed the Hadith are Abu Zur`ah, Abu Hatim, Yahya bin Saeed, etc.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;This Hadith is narrated by many unreliable chains. These Isnads (chains of transmission) were deemed to be unreliable because they contain Shia, liars, and people accused of lying. &amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;You said,,,This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence...&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;I say Abu Bkar9r.a) was made Ameer-e-Hajj non by Prophet(pbuh) himself and Imam of all present while Porpphet(pbuh) was seriously ill,just before Prphet(pbuh) passed away.This is clear cut superiorty of Abu Bkar(r.a) over the rest of Ummah of that time and no generation can supersede Prophet(pbuh) generation..isnt it Ameen?&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Want more information i am here for you.Thanks&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Wasalam&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt; Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brothers.Let me say this again.I said Give me one Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath well known scholar who doubts the authenticity of this Hadith.I don't want your bias opinion.I want the opinion of the scholars.You have D.M. Digital Sunni T.V, Noor T.V, Iqra T.V, Ummah Channel, Takbeer T.V and so on. Not one single scholar has come on these channels and put a bit of doubt about this hadith. On many occasions this hadith has been mentioned on these channels by Sunni Scholars and it's authenticity has been proven from the authentic books. So I don't know where you boys are coming from and what you are trying to prove.As far as superiority is concerned you boys need to sort out who is superior. Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] or Hazrath Umar [ra]? The first was made Imam by the Prophet [pbuh]. OK! Then why was there any need for the secret meeting in Sakeefa for which the Prophet's [pbuh] funeral was ignored? Why was there any need to chose who is going to govern after Muhammed [pbuh] when the Prophet [pbuh[ had already done the job of selecting/making Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]? Why is Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] superior above all when it is said about Hazrath Umar [ra] that he had the qualities of a messenger? [Aghar-Mere-Baad-Koi-Nabi-Hotha-Tho-Woh-Umar-Hotha] Boys! you really need to sort yourselves out.Early on you mentioned Hazrath Ali's [ra] saying that Hazrath Umar [ra] was the best of Ummah. What is going on here? Wassalaam.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />Salam Ameen.<br />Having given a list of Grand Grand Sunnis Scholars like Imam Bukhari(r.a) still you want a proof?are you want me to say Milk is Black rather white?<br />Brother Efendi has refuted it through scientific way from yours own SHIA sources which you always called yours own sources utter lies and garbage,Indeed which are...<br />Yours hate for Abu Bkar(r.a) and Umer(r.a) is day light shined to us.<br />Anyhow this not the case with Ali(r.a) which called them the best men in Ummah after Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) in yours own books.<br /><br />I will give you a scan copy let see what Imam Baqar(r.a) has to say about Sheikhian Karimian(r.a)<br /><br />here you go...............<br /><a href='http://img193.images...ronabubakr.jpg/' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow'>http://img193.images...akr.jpg/</a><br /><br />Ameen you need to sort yourself out instead.....<br />Wasalam.<br />
<br /><br /><br />Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. Imam Bukhari? Imam Muslim? Their books Bukhari and Muslim in which they gathered many Hadiths are all labelled Sehih by Ahle Sunnah. Once again you labell the book Sehih and then raise doubt about bits and pieces in that book. It's you who need to sort yourselves out. Your own sources? What is the problem with you? The Shia have not made any statement that so and so book or books are authentic just as the holy Quiran. The writer is responsible for what he writes and that is his opinion. This is the Shia point of view unlike you. Tell me sunshine! Why didn't the Khulafa gather the Hadiths? Wouldn't you consider this their failure,Negligence? If they did than we would not be in such a mess, totaly confused about what is authentic and what is not. We wouldn't have had these chains of narrations would we? If Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim did a great job by gathering the Hadiths then wouldn't this be the failure of the Khulafa? If the Khulafa gathered the Hadiths than we would have the Prophet's [pbuh] sayings first hand. So what really were the best of the Ummah up to if they couldn't do a simple, very important job? They couldn't or didn't? WHY? Milk is black rather than white? I want you not to be prejudice, bias but just be fair and just Stick to reality and facts and stop believing in fantasy and fairy tales. [Hakeekath-Ko-Tasleem-Karo] Milk is white when it suits you and you turn it black when it suits you. Hazrath Ali [ra] said that these two were the best of Ummah? This is clearly in the authentic books that Hazrath ali [ra] said I, Ali, am Sadeek-e-Akbar, I am Farooq-e-Aazam. I will give you the reference. Then once again blame it on the Shias for making things up when they are present in your so called authentic books. Wassalaam.

#10 ONLINE   swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:32 PM

Ameen why dont you starts writing novels you seems to be good im making imaginary tales.... And you dont even know the basic fact that, when a report is presnet in sunan books (that too sahihein) its take precedence over reports present in history books...
Allah is the MAULA of those who believe, whereas the disbelievers have no MAULA (Quran 47:11)

HASBUNALLAHU WA NEMAL WAKEEL, NEMAL MAULA WA NEMAN NASEER
Translation: "Allah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs (for us); what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord) and what an Excellent Helper!

#11 OFFLINE   Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 06:22 PM

View PostAmeen, on 24 June 2010 - 02:13 PM, said:

<br />

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 23 June 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;

View PostAmeen, on 23 June 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 17 June 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;

View PostAmeen, on 17 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear, beloved brother. Give me the name of one Ahle-Sunnah scholar who has a teeny weeny bit of doubt in the authenticity of this Hadith [ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the door of it ] This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence. This is something to think about! Wassalaam.&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Salam Ameen,&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;You want one name of Ahle-Sunnah Scholar who has doubted its authenticity rather many has rejected it as being shia fabrication.&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;quot;I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate.&amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;It was related by al-Hakim, at-Tabarani and others. It was also related by at-Tirmidhi with the wording, &amp;amp;amp;quot;I am the House of Wisdom, and Ali is its Door.&amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Albani declared the Hadith to be Mawdoo (fabricated). Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text. Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected). Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable. Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame' li Ahkam al-Quran: &amp;amp;amp;quot;This Hadith is Batil (false)!&amp;amp;amp;quot;Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie. Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths. Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. Amongst others who dismissed the Hadith are Abu Zur`ah, Abu Hatim, Yahya bin Saeed, etc.&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;This Hadith is narrated by many unreliable chains. These Isnads (chains of transmission) were deemed to be unreliable because they contain Shia, liars, and people accused of lying. &amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;You said,,,This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence...&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;I say Abu Bkar9r.a) was made Ameer-e-Hajj non by Prophet(pbuh) himself and Imam of all present while Porpphet(pbuh) was seriously ill,just before Prphet(pbuh) passed away.This is clear cut superiorty of Abu Bkar(r.a) over the rest of Ummah of that time and no generation can supersede Prophet(pbuh) generation..isnt it Ameen?&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Want more information i am here for you.Thanks&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Wasalam&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt; Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brothers.Let me say this again.I said Give me one Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath well known scholar who doubts the authenticity of this Hadith.I don't want your bias opinion.I want the opinion of the scholars.You have D.M. Digital Sunni T.V, Noor T.V, Iqra T.V, Ummah Channel, Takbeer T.V and so on. Not one single scholar has come on these channels and put a bit of doubt about this hadith. On many occasions this hadith has been mentioned on these channels by Sunni Scholars and it's authenticity has been proven from the authentic books. So I don't know where you boys are coming from and what you are trying to prove.As far as superiority is concerned you boys need to sort out who is superior. Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] or Hazrath Umar [ra]? The first was made Imam by the Prophet [pbuh]. OK! Then why was there any need for the secret meeting in Sakeefa for which the Prophet's [pbuh] funeral was ignored? Why was there any need to chose who is going to govern after Muhammed [pbuh] when the Prophet [pbuh[ had already done the job of selecting/making Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]? Why is Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] superior above all when it is said about Hazrath Umar [ra] that he had the qualities of a messenger? [Aghar-Mere-Baad-Koi-Nabi-Hotha-Tho-Woh-Umar-Hotha] Boys! you really need to sort yourselves out.Early on you mentioned Hazrath Ali's [ra] saying that Hazrath Umar [ra] was the best of Ummah. What is going on here? Wassalaam.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;Salam Ameen.&lt;br /&gt;Having given a list of Grand Grand Sunnis Scholars like Imam Bukhari(r.a) still you want a proof?are you want me to say Milk is Black rather white?&lt;br /&gt;Brother Efendi has refuted it through scientific way from yours own SHIA sources which you always called yours own sources utter lies and garbage,Indeed which are...&lt;br /&gt;Yours hate for Abu Bkar(r.a) and Umer(r.a) is day light shined to us.&lt;br /&gt;Anyhow this not the case with Ali(r.a) which called them the best men in Ummah after Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) in yours own books.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I will give you a scan copy let see what Imam Baqar(r.a) has to say about Sheikhian Karimian(r.a)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;here you go...............&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href='http://img193.images...ronabubakr.jpg/' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow'&gt;http://img193.images...;/a&#62;&#60;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ameen you need to sort yourself out instead.....&lt;br /&gt;Wasalam.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. Imam Bukhari? Imam Muslim? Their books Bukhari and Muslim in which they gathered many Hadiths are all labelled Sehih by Ahle Sunnah. Once again you labell the book Sehih and then raise doubt about bits and pieces in that book. It's you who need to sort yourselves out. Your own sources? What is the problem with you? The Shia have not made any statement that so and so book or books are authentic just as the holy Quiran. The writer is responsible for what he writes and that is his opinion. This is the Shia point of view unlike you. Tell me sunshine! Why didn't the Khulafa gather the Hadiths? Wouldn't you consider this their failure,Negligence? If they did than we would not be in such a mess, totaly confused about what is authentic and what is not. We wouldn't have had these chains of narrations would we? If Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim did a great job by gathering the Hadiths then wouldn't this be the failure of the Khulafa? If the Khulafa gathered the Hadiths than we would have the Prophet's [pbuh] sayings first hand. So what really were the best of the Ummah up to if they couldn't do a simple, very important job? They couldn't or didn't? WHY? Milk is black rather than white? I want you not to be prejudice, bias but just be fair and just Stick to reality and facts and stop believing in fantasy and fairy tales. [Hakeekath-Ko-Tasleem-Karo] Milk is white when it suits you and you turn it black when it suits you. Hazrath Ali [ra] said that these two were the best of Ummah? This is clearly in the authentic books that Hazrath ali [ra] said I, Ali, am Sadeek-e-Akbar, I am Farooq-e-Aazam. I will give you the reference. Then once again blame it on the Shias for making things up when they are present in your so called authentic books. Wassalaam.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

Salam Ameen.
                               Yours frustration is over taking yours senses.You Shias dont consider Quran to be authentic being compiled by Khulaphas,now you are suggesting that they should have collected Hadees and you said they have failed..."Changes in Quran for Drinker Khulafa-e-Rashideen". (Translation Of Quran Majeed by Maqbool Hussain Dehlevi, Page No. 479),The main compilers of Quran interpreted changed corrupted and perverted the Holy Quran. (Al-Ehtijaj, Page No. 257).
Remember Ali(r.a) is the Rightly guided Khalafa as well so yours blasphamic statement pointing Ali(r.a) too.
Ameen the 2 Saheehian arent the words its author but the authentic sayings of Rasool Allah(pbuh),There are many Hadees reported by Umme ulMomineen Ayesha Sadika(r.a) which you reject catagoricaly,She is declared innocent by Allah in Quran,Sadika by Rasool Allah(pbuh) still Shias dont get tired to say bad things about her.
So you are telling me that you would have accepted Hadees had it been collected by Khulfas?what a joke mate,you dont accept Quran collected by them how come hadees you would have?
Yours Hadees books were written by none of yours 12 Imams rather it was written after nearly 300 years of Imam Jafar(r.a).let see what you has to say now?
No doubt Ali(r.a) is Sadique-e-Akbar and Farooq-e-Azam..who is saying he is not?but What about Abu Bakr(r.a) who is called by Prophet(pbuh)?what about Umer(r.a) who is called by Pr0phet(r.a).Ali(r.a) is Sadique Akbar and Farooq Azam but after Abu Bakr and Umer(may Allah be pleased with them) Sheikhain Karimian(r.a).Any problem Ameen in statement?Hope you wont dispute it.......
Ameen you called yours books utter lies and garbage i agree they are.But we have got a sound system of our Hadees collections,bear this thing always in mind,though many Rafadis and Nasabis tried their best to sabotage the main stream creeds by their lies but  Allahumdallah this matter is sorted out by Alim-e-Rajal.
Ameen brother swords_of_sunnah has given you very good advise,why dont you start writing Novel?
Wasalam for now

#12 OFFLINE   Ameen

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:19 PM

View Postswords_of_sunnah, on 24 June 2010 - 03:32 PM, said:

<br />Ameen why dont you starts writing novels you seems to be good im making imaginary tales.... And you dont even know the basic fact that, when a report is presnet in sunan books (that too sahihein) its take precedence over reports present in history books...<br />
<br /><br /><br />Assalaamo Alaikum my dear brother. This is nothing but jealousy towards the legendary Ali (ra). Give me something which is unauthentic regarding the Azwaj and Sahaba. Give me something which is sticky regarding Azwaj and Sahaba. Now that would be fair, just and equal. Wassalaam.

#13 OFFLINE   Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:05 PM

View PostAmeen, on 04 August 2010 - 05:19 PM, said:

<br />

View Postswords_of_sunnah, on 24 June 2010 - 03:32 PM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;Ameen why dont you starts writing novels you seems to be good im making imaginary tales.... And you dont even know the basic fact that, when a report is presnet in sunan books (that too sahihein) its take precedence over reports present in history books...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Assalaamo Alaikum my dear brother. This is nothing but jealousy towards the legendary Ali (ra). Give me something which is unauthentic regarding the Azwaj and Sahaba. Give me something which is sticky regarding Azwaj and Sahaba. Now that would be fair, just and equal. Wassalaam.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

Salam Ameen,
                             The Hadees regarding (I am the city of Knowledge, and Ali(r.a) is the door of it) Abu Bakr(r.a) is wall of the city,Umer(r.a) is roof of it and Usman(r.a) is window it is fabricated as well.So next time you wont complain right??????????????????
You Shias are like orthodox Christians if you are talking to them about Prophet Jesus(pbuh),the second you say that he was only true prophet of Allah Almighty the next moment  they will say to you that oh you are the cursed one because you didnt say that Jesus(pbuh) is the son of God(Mazallah)...then they say that you have grudge against  Jesus(pbuh),you are jealous because Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) wasnt the son of God but  Prophet Jesus(pbuh) is.............................The same exactly case is with you...even in yours mind you would be saying that my opponent may be saying right but truth never comes on deviant sect like Shias and person like you.
Wasalam for now too.

#14 OFFLINE   Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:11 PM

View PostAmeen, on 04 August 2010 - 05:19 PM, said:

<br />

View Postswords_of_sunnah, on 24 June 2010 - 03:32 PM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;Ameen why dont you starts writing novels you seems to be good im making imaginary tales.... And you dont even know the basic fact that, when a report is presnet in sunan books (that too sahihein) its take precedence over reports present in history books...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Assalaamo Alaikum my dear brother. This is nothing but jealousy towards the legendary Ali (ra). Give me something which is unauthentic regarding the Azwaj and Sahaba. Give me something which is sticky regarding Azwaj and Sahaba. Now that would be fair, just and equal. Wassalaam.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

Salam Ameen,
                             The Hadees regarding (I am the city of Knowledge, and Ali(r.a) is the door of it) Abu Bakr(r.a) is wall of the city,Umer(r.a) is roof of it and Usman(r.a) is window it is fabricated as well.So next time you wont complain right??????????????????
You Shias are like orthodox Christians if you are talking to them about Prophet Jesus(pbuh),the second you say that he was only true prophet of Allah Almighty the next moment  they will say to you that oh you are the cursed one because you didnt say that Jesus(pbuh) is the son of God(Mazallah)...then they say that you have grudge against  Jesus(pbuh),you are jealous because Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) wasnt the son of God but  Prophet Jesus(pbuh) is.............................The same exactly case is with you...even in yours mind you would be saying that my opponent may be saying right but truth never comes on deviant sect like Shias and person like you.
Ameen you havnt anwsered my above post though???????????
Wasalam for now too.

#15 OFFLINE   sachamuslim

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:14 AM

View PostAmeen, on 24 June 2010 - 02:13 PM, said:

<br />

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 23 June 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;

View PostAmeen, on 23 June 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 17 June 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;

View PostAmeen, on 17 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear, beloved brother. Give me the name of one Ahle-Sunnah scholar who has a teeny weeny bit of doubt in the authenticity of this Hadith [ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the door of it ] This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence. This is something to think about! Wassalaam.&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Salam Ameen,&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;You want one name of Ahle-Sunnah Scholar who has doubted its authenticity rather many has rejected it as being shia fabrication.&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;quot;I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate.&amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;It was related by al-Hakim, at-Tabarani and others. It was also related by at-Tirmidhi with the wording, &amp;amp;amp;quot;I am the House of Wisdom, and Ali is its Door.&amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Albani declared the Hadith to be Mawdoo (fabricated). Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text. Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected). Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable. Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame' li Ahkam al-Quran: &amp;amp;amp;quot;This Hadith is Batil (false)!&amp;amp;amp;quot;Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie. Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths. Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. Amongst others who dismissed the Hadith are Abu Zur`ah, Abu Hatim, Yahya bin Saeed, etc.&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;This Hadith is narrated by many unreliable chains. These Isnads (chains of transmission) were deemed to be unreliable because they contain Shia, liars, and people accused of lying. &amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;You said,,,This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence...&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;I say Abu Bkar9r.a) was made Ameer-e-Hajj non by Prophet(pbuh) himself and Imam of all present while Porpphet(pbuh) was seriously ill,just before Prphet(pbuh) passed away.This is clear cut superiorty of Abu Bkar(r.a) over the rest of Ummah of that time and no generation can supersede Prophet(pbuh) generation..isnt it Ameen?&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Want more information i am here for you.Thanks&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;Wasalam&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt; Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brothers.Let me say this again.I said Give me one Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath well known scholar who doubts the authenticity of this Hadith.I don't want your bias opinion.I want the opinion of the scholars.You have D.M. Digital Sunni T.V, Noor T.V, Iqra T.V, Ummah Channel, Takbeer T.V and so on. Not one single scholar has come on these channels and put a bit of doubt about this hadith. On many occasions this hadith has been mentioned on these channels by Sunni Scholars and it's authenticity has been proven from the authentic books. So I don't know where you boys are coming from and what you are trying to prove.As far as superiority is concerned you boys need to sort out who is superior. Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] or Hazrath Umar [ra]? The first was made Imam by the Prophet [pbuh]. OK! Then why was there any need for the secret meeting in Sakeefa for which the Prophet's [pbuh] funeral was ignored? Why was there any need to chose who is going to govern after Muhammed [pbuh] when the Prophet [pbuh[ had already done the job of selecting/making Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]? Why is Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] superior above all when it is said about Hazrath Umar [ra] that he had the qualities of a messenger? [Aghar-Mere-Baad-Koi-Nabi-Hotha-Tho-Woh-Umar-Hotha] Boys! you really need to sort yourselves out.Early on you mentioned Hazrath Ali's [ra] saying that Hazrath Umar [ra] was the best of Ummah. What is going on here? Wassalaam.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;Salam Ameen.&lt;br /&gt;Having given a list of Grand Grand Sunnis Scholars like Imam Bukhari(r.a) still you want a proof?are you want me to say Milk is Black rather white?&lt;br /&gt;Brother Efendi has refuted it through scientific way from yours own SHIA sources which you always called yours own sources utter lies and garbage,Indeed which are...&lt;br /&gt;Yours hate for Abu Bkar(r.a) and Umer(r.a) is day light shined to us.&lt;br /&gt;Anyhow this not the case with Ali(r.a) which called them the best men in Ummah after Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) in yours own books.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I will give you a scan copy let see what Imam Baqar(r.a) has to say about Sheikhian Karimian(r.a)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;here you go...............&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href='http://img193.images...ronabubakr.jpg/' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow'&gt;http://img193.images...;/a&#62;&#60;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ameen you need to sort yourself out instead.....&lt;br /&gt;Wasalam.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. Imam Bukhari? Imam Muslim? Their books Bukhari and Muslim in which they gathered many Hadiths are all labelled Sehih by Ahle Sunnah. Once again you labell the book Sehih and then raise doubt about bits and pieces in that book. It's you who need to sort yourselves out. Your own sources? What is the problem with you? The Shia have not made any statement that so and so book or books are authentic just as the holy Quiran. The writer is responsible for what he writes and that is his opinion. This is the Shia point of view unlike you. Tell me sunshine! Why didn't the Khulafa gather the Hadiths? Wouldn't you consider this their failure,Negligence? If they did than we would not be in such a mess, totaly confused about what is authentic and what is not. We wouldn't have had these chains of narrations would we? If Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim did a great job by gathering the Hadiths then wouldn't this be the failure of the Khulafa? If the Khulafa gathered the Hadiths than we would have the Prophet's [pbuh] sayings first hand. So what really were the best of the Ummah up to if they couldn't do a simple, very important job? They couldn't or didn't? WHY? Milk is black rather than white? I want you not to be prejudice, bias but just be fair and just Stick to reality and facts and stop believing in fantasy and fairy tales. [Hakeekath-Ko-Tasleem-Karo] Milk is white when it suits you and you turn it black when it suits you. Hazrath Ali [ra] said that these two were the best of Ummah? This is clearly in the authentic books that Hazrath ali [ra] said I, Ali, am Sadeek-e-Akbar, I am Farooq-e-Aazam. I will give you the reference. Then once again blame it on the Shias for making things up when they are present in your so called authentic books. Wassalaam.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

salam ameen!!!!1 when u want to say wrong abt khulfae rashidin u use bukhari...and its authentication...and now u r saying something different....ur hatred towards khulfae rashideen is like a sunshine ..!!!11

#16 OFFLINE   sachamuslim

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:15 AM

View PostAmeen, on 24 June 2010 - 02:13 PM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 23 June 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;

View PostAmeen, on 23 June 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;

View PostAli Shah Hussain, on 17 June 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;

View PostAmeen, on 17 June 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear, beloved brother. Give me the name of one Ahle-Sunnah scholar who has a teeny weeny bit of doubt in the authenticity of this Hadith [ I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the door of it ] This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence. This is something to think about! Wassalaam.&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Salam Ameen,&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;You want one name of Ahle-Sunnah Scholar who has doubted its authenticity rather many has rejected it as being shia fabrication.&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate.&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;It was related by al-Hakim, at-Tabarani and others. It was also related by at-Tirmidhi with the wording, &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;I am the House of Wisdom, and Ali is its Door.&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Albani declared the Hadith to be Mawdoo (fabricated). Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text. Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected). Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable. Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame' li Ahkam al-Quran: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;This Hadith is Batil (false)!&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie. Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths. Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. Amongst others who dismissed the Hadith are Abu Zur`ah, Abu Hatim, Yahya bin Saeed, etc.&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;This Hadith is narrated by many unreliable chains. These Isnads (chains of transmission) were deemed to be unreliable because they contain Shia, liars, and people accused of lying. &amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;You said,,,This hadith does not start from Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] and does not go according to the Khulafa-e-Rashidah sequence...&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;I say Abu Bkar9r.a) was made Ameer-e-Hajj non by Prophet(pbuh) himself and Imam of all present while Porpphet(pbuh) was seriously ill,just before Prphet(pbuh) passed away.This is clear cut superiorty of Abu Bkar(r.a) over the rest of Ummah of that time and no generation can supersede Prophet(pbuh) generation..isnt it Ameen?&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Want more information i am here for you.Thanks&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Wasalam&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt; Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brothers.Let me say this again.I said Give me one Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath well known scholar who doubts the authenticity of this Hadith.I don't want your bias opinion.I want the opinion of the scholars.You have D.M. Digital Sunni T.V, Noor T.V, Iqra T.V, Ummah Channel, Takbeer T.V and so on. Not one single scholar has come on these channels and put a bit of doubt about this hadith. On many occasions this hadith has been mentioned on these channels by Sunni Scholars and it's authenticity has been proven from the authentic books. So I don't know where you boys are coming from and what you are trying to prove.As far as superiority is concerned you boys need to sort out who is superior. Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] or Hazrath Umar [ra]? The first was made Imam by the Prophet [pbuh]. OK! Then why was there any need for the secret meeting in Sakeefa for which the Prophet's [pbuh] funeral was ignored? Why was there any need to chose who is going to govern after Muhammed [pbuh] when the Prophet [pbuh[ had already done the job of selecting/making Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]? Why is Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] superior above all when it is said about Hazrath Umar [ra] that he had the qualities of a messenger? [Aghar-Mere-Baad-Koi-Nabi-Hotha-Tho-Woh-Umar-Hotha] Boys! you really need to sort yourselves out.Early on you mentioned Hazrath Ali's [ra] saying that Hazrath Umar [ra] was the best of Ummah. What is going on here? Wassalaam.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Salam Ameen.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Having given a list of Grand Grand Sunnis Scholars like Imam Bukhari(r.a) still you want a proof?are you want me to say Milk is Black rather white?&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Brother Efendi has refuted it through scientific way from yours own SHIA sources which you always called yours own sources utter lies and garbage,Indeed which are...&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Yours hate for Abu Bkar(r.a) and Umer(r.a) is day light shined to us.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Anyhow this not the case with Ali(r.a) which called them the best men in Ummah after Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) in yours own books.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;I will give you a scan copy let see what Imam Baqar(r.a) has to say about Sheikhian Karimian(r.a)&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;here you go...............&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a href='http://img193.images...ronabubakr.jpg/' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow'&amp;gt;http://img193.images...8;gt;&#38;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Ameen you need to sort yourself out instead.....&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Wasalam.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. Imam Bukhari? Imam Muslim? Their books Bukhari and Muslim in which they gathered many Hadiths are all labelled Sehih by Ahle Sunnah. Once again you labell the book Sehih and then raise doubt about bits and pieces in that book. It's you who need to sort yourselves out. Your own sources? What is the problem with you? The Shia have not made any statement that so and so book or books are authentic just as the holy Quiran. The writer is responsible for what he writes and that is his opinion. This is the Shia point of view unlike you. Tell me sunshine! Why didn't the Khulafa gather the Hadiths? Wouldn't you consider this their failure,Negligence? If they did than we would not be in such a mess, totaly confused about what is authentic and what is not. We wouldn't have had these chains of narrations would we? If Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim did a great job by gathering the Hadiths then wouldn't this be the failure of the Khulafa? If the Khulafa gathered the Hadiths than we would have the Prophet's [pbuh] sayings first hand. So what really were the best of the Ummah up to if they couldn't do a simple, very important job? They couldn't or didn't? WHY? Milk is black rather than white? I want you not to be prejudice, bias but just be fair and just Stick to reality and facts and stop believing in fantasy and fairy tales. [Hakeekath-Ko-Tasleem-Karo] Milk is white when it suits you and you turn it black when it suits you. Hazrath Ali [ra] said that these two were the best of Ummah? This is clearly in the authentic books that Hazrath ali [ra] said I, Ali, am Sadeek-e-Akbar, I am Farooq-e-Aazam. I will give you the reference. Then once again blame it on the Shias for making things up when they are present in your so called authentic books. Wassalaam.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br /><br />


salam ameen!!!!1 when u want to say wrong abt khulfae rashidin u use bukhari...and its authentication...and now u r saying something different....ur hatred towards khulfae rashideen is like a sunshine ..!!!11
r u accusing HAZRAT ALI (RA) TOO?

Edited by sachamuslim, 05 August 2010 - 02:24 AM.


#17 OFFLINE   Hani

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 05:10 PM

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

I remember writing a Short piece about this Hadith, here you are:

The Shia Hold-on to an extremely weak Hadith attributed to the Prophet PBUH that he said : "I am the city of knowledge and Ali Is its Gate, All must enter through the Gate". In terms of Matn (Main text) this Hadith makes no sense, because it clearly implies that ALL Knowledge must be accessed through Caliph ali RAA and thus the rest of the nation and all those Companions which the Prophet PBUH sent to foreign towns and tribes and empires in order to call them to Islam, All those must have been useless and pointless because Knowledge can only be accessed Via Ali RAA. As far as the authenticity of this Hadith, Its Sanad is very weak and it's not relied upon at all.

Now Here Based on this Hadith the Shia have a Huge problem, because Islamic knowledge can only be received from the Imam...

I ask Why wasn't Ali RAA the Gate of "Hadith al Kisaa"? Or the Hadith of the cloak regarding Ayatul tatheer [33:33]. It wasn't narrated by ali RAA although he was present at the time So How can the Shia use it? This and many Other Hadiths which Narrate the Virtues of AhluLbayt and the Virtues of Ali Bin Abi Talib himself RAA are not acquired through That gate of knowledge. Muslim Narrated the Hadith of The Kisaa Through a Sahih Chain from the mother of believers Aisha RAA in his Sahih book. According to Shia Aisha RAA is not a gate of knowledge, They even say she hates Ali RAA So this Hadith should be refused outright as it does not come from the source which the Prophet PBUH specified.

The Hadith of Two Weighty things "Al Thaqalayn" in which the prophet PBUH says that he will leave behind two important things, The Book of Allah the Quran which is full of guidance and His Family, Then he says: I remind you of my Family (three Times). Imam Muslim narrated this from the Respected companion Zaid bin al Arqam RAA with a Sahih chain. So why didn't the Gate of knowledge narrate this Hadith? Who Knows, But what is certain is that Zaid RAA is not a Gate of knowledge according to Shias so the Hadith of Thaqalayn is Rejected outright.

Let's see what else, Hadith al Manzilah or "Hadith Manzilat Harun min Mousa" which the shiites try their best to misunderstand, Is Narrated in Sahih Muslim with an Authentic chain by Sa'ad bin abi Waqas RAA. unfortunately Ibn AbI Waqas RAA is not a gate of knowledge and according to Shias there is Only One Gate and That is Ali RAA and thus the Hadith of "City of knowledge and its gate" Refutes the Hadith of the Manzilah and cancels it as a Hujjah.

يقول رجب البرسي في مشارق الأنوال ص33
( والمدينة لاتؤتى إلا بالباب فحصر أخذ العلم بعده في عليٍ وعترته ,فعُلِمَ أن كل من أخذ علمه بعد النبي صلى الله عليه وآله من غير علي وعترته عليهم السلام فهو بدعة وضلال وفي هذا الحديث إشارة لطيفة وذلك أن كل وحيٍ يأتي إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وآله ,من حضْرة الربّ العلي فإنه لايصل به الملك حتى يمر به على الباب ويدخل به من الباب) .

Famous Shiite Scholar Rajab al Burasee In his book "Mashareq al Anwal" Page 33:

"And the city cannot be entered unless by its Gate, So the Prophet PBUH restricted taking the knowledge after his death unless it's Through Ali and His Utrah, So it became well known that anyone who took his knowledge after the death of the Prophet PBUH from other than Ali and His Utrah PBUT then he committed an act of Innovation and Misguidance. This Hadith also points out a gentle thought That whenever The Lord sent his Wahi with the angels to the Prophet PBUH Then that Angel must first Pass through the Gate of the City as well."


قال النباطي العاملي في الصراط المستقيم 2/19 :
( فجعل نفسه الشريفة تلك المدينة ومنع الوصول إليها إلا بواسطة الباب فمن دخل منه كان له عن المعصية جُنّة واقية وإلى الهداية غُنية وافية حيث أوجب الرجوع إليه في كل وقتٍ المستلزم للعصمة المستلزمة لاستحقاقه) .

Famous Shiite Scholar Al Nabati al Amili in his book "Al Sirat al Mustaqeem" 2/19:

"And he made his honored Self that City and forbade its reach unless by the Gate, and whoever does enter by this gate shall be protected from Sin and shall be guided and He has ordered That they seek him in every time..."
Religion = simple and clear.

عليك سلامُ الله منّا كلّما ثارَ ثائرٌ يا حُسين


#18 OFFLINE   Hani

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 05:17 PM

Let me give you a Sahih hadith:

The Prophet PBUH said: " Let no Door of the Mosque remain open, except the door of Abu Bakr "
[Sahih al bukhari]
Religion = simple and clear.

عليك سلامُ الله منّا كلّما ثارَ ثائرٌ يا حُسين


#19 OFFLINE   Efendi

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 07:14 PM

Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu.
Welcome to board brother! Hopefully this board IP version would be fixed sooner or later.





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