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KHALIFAT and QURAN KHALIFAT in the light of QURAN

#1 SHIA014

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:09 PM

Hi everyone, I am a SHIA and wants to understand the KHALIFAT as an institution (not discussing the personalities disrespectfully or in an insulting manner.) please shed your unbiased views in the light of QURAN only. As I am new to this forum and really really want to understand KHALIFAT from QURANIC point of view. Please do not quote HADIS at this time. (Please do not insult me because I was born in a SHIA family, I promise that during the entire discussion I will be unbiased and logical) Looking forward for an articulate and direct answer.

( I am on this forum neither to challenge nor to be get challenged, but I am showing courage to come to this discussion forum by challenging my own self, looking forward for SIRAT-E-MUSTAQEEM)

Best Regards

#2 ya rasulallah (s.a.w)

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 05:54 PM

Brother I am a shia myself and alhamdulillah quite firm on my beliefs....i hope inshallah it would be nice to learn from this thread...

#3 SHIA014

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 07:04 AM

Wsalam, its good to know that someone has shown interest in this subject. to be honest I am really interested in knowing the point of view of other sect. of Islamic believers. Having no reply yet means either this subject is of no interest or people have less knowledge about Quran.

What I have see on this forum that we are trying our best to prove that I am/ we are right and opponent is wrong, where as what we are missing is an articulate and logical discussion in which if the opponent is saying something right we should accept and vice verse.

Again for me the purpose of this discussion is to see where i am standing in the eyes of others.

Best Reards

#4 Ameen

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:41 PM

SHIA014, on 08 July 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Hi everyone, I am a SHIA and wants to understand the KHALIFAT as an institution (not discussing the personalities disrespectfully or in an insulting manner.) please shed your unbiased views in the light of QURAN only. As I am new to this forum and really really want to understand KHALIFAT from QURANIC point of view. Please do not quote HADIS at this time. (Please do not insult me because I was born in a SHIA family, I promise that during the entire discussion I will be unbiased and logical) Looking forward for an articulate and direct answer.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;( I am on this forum neither to challenge nor to be get challenged, but I am showing courage to come to this discussion forum by challenging my own self, looking forward for SIRAT-E-MUSTAQEEM)&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Best Regards&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. The boys running this site are prejudice and bias. They believe in favouritism and taking sides. They also love to acuse and abuse. Their belief and faith is that anybody who disagrees with them is wrong and they do not consider Shia as Muslims. Read their articles/posts and you will find out. They do not discuss/debate according to reality and facts, with sense and logic and being just and fair. So you will not get much out of these lads. Anyway! Lets continue. Messengerhood and Prophecy are Allah created positions/status/grades etc. Allah decides who was worthy of being a Messenger or Prophet to govern, guide mankind and to be a connection between him and mankind because we can not approach him or have a direct link with him. The picking and choosing of Messengers and Prophets was not left to mankind it has allways been Allah's decision/responsibility. All Muslims believe in this but differ on the next step. The Shia believe that Imaamath and Khilafath are also Allah created positions/status/grades etc and just as the Messengers/Prophets Allah decides who was worthy of being an Imaam or a Khaleefa. The Shia believe that this part of the job was not left to mankind (people) just as the first job wasn't. The Sunni believe that Messengerhood and Prophecy has ended, Islam has been completed, the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] did not name a successor therefore the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath was left in the hands of mankind (people). Some Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] left the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath in the hands of the Muslim Ummah. Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa. Take a good look. Wassalaam.

This post has been edited by Ameen: 14 July 2010 - 05:02 PM

#5 Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 12:46 AM

Ameen, on 14 July 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

SHIA014, on 08 July 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Hi everyone, I am a SHIA and wants to understand the KHALIFAT as an institution (not discussing the personalities disrespectfully or in an insulting manner.) please shed your unbiased views in the light of QURAN only. As I am new to this forum and really really want to understand KHALIFAT from QURANIC point of view. Please do not quote HADIS at this time. (Please do not insult me because I was born in a SHIA family, I promise that during the entire discussion I will be unbiased and logical) Looking forward for an articulate and direct answer.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;( I am on this forum neither to challenge nor to be get challenged, but I am showing courage to come to this discussion forum by challenging my own self, looking forward for SIRAT-E-MUSTAQEEM)&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Best Regards&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. The boys running this site are prejudice and bias. They believe in favouritism and taking sides. They also love to acuse and abuse. Their belief and faith is that anybody who disagrees with them is wrong and they do not consider Shia as Muslims. Read their articles/posts and you will find out. They do not discuss/debate according to reality and facts, with sense and logic and being just and fair. So you will not get much out of these lads. Anyway! Lets continue. Messengerhood and Prophecy are Allah created positions/status/grades etc. Allah decides who was worthy of being a Messenger or Prophet to govern, guide mankind and to be a connection between him and mankind because we can not approach him or have a direct link with him. The picking and choosing of Messengers and Prophets was not left to mankind it has allways been Allah's decision/responsibility. All Muslims believe in this but differ on the next step. The Shia believe that Imaamath and Khilafath are also Allah created positions/status/grades etc and just as the Messengers/Prophets Allah decides who was worthy of being an Imaam or a Khaleefa. The Shia believe that this part of the job was not left to mankind (people) just as the first job wasn't. The Sunni believe that Messengerhood and Prophecy has ended, Islam has been completed, the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] did not name a successor therefore the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath was left in the hands of mankind (people). Some Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] left the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath in the hands of the Muslim Ummah. Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa. Take a good look. Wassalaam.

Salam Ameen.
SOS said rightly advise you to sart writing novels............................no comments on yours Bull Shit..
You said.[Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa.]
Ameen Indeed you are misguided so please dont misgiude others.

Let see waht Allah Almighty has stated in Quran vrse 30 Surah Al- Baqara..

(2:30) Just recall the time when your Lord said to the angels , "I am going to appoint a vicegerent on the Earth." They humbly enquired, "Are you going to appoint such a one as will cause disorder and shed blood on the Earth? We are already engaged in hymning Your praise, and hallowing Your name"

In very next verse clear the matter.....

(2:31) Allah replied, "I know what you do not know." After this he taught Adam the names of all things. Then He set these before the angels and asked, "Tell Me the names of these things, if you are right (in thinking that the appointment of a vicegerent will cause disorder)"

(2:32) They replied, "Glory be to You. You alone are free from defect. We possess only that much knowledge which You have given us. Indeed You alone are All-Knowing and All-Wise."

So is it about yours imaginary Imamate theory?????????????????????????? or about Abul Bashir Hazrat Adam (pbuh)?

Second verse you quoted in favour of your deviant cult....Let See what Allah Almighty stated.......

(2:124) Recall to mind that when his Lord put Abraham to test, in certain things and he fulfilled all of them, He said, "I am going to make you the leader of mankind." Abraham humbly asked, "Does this promise apply to my descendants also?" He replied, "My promise does not apply to the transgressors."

Following verse just to clear the matter..........

(2:125) And remember that We made this House (the Ka'bah) the centre and sanctuary for mankind and enjoined the people to dedicate to worship the place where Abraham used to stand for prayer, and We urged Abraham and Ismail to keep My House pure for those who would go round it and those who would retire to it for devotion and prayer and for those who would bow down and prostrate themselves there in worhsip.
Ameen the verse refer to whom and to whom you to refer it.................................Fear Allah....................................

Regarding you said that [Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc.]

I have already answered you in detail where you still to answerless my questions...............

We have Fiqa differences not Aqeeda(Creed) one.you shia have numerous one based on Creed/belief........Thats why you have over 200 Shias sects,every sects claim to be having right Imam since Shiaism main piller is imamate................................................

just go their and see the difference in Aqeda...................www.akhbari.org

Wasalm.

#6 Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 01:43 AM

SHIA014, on 08 July 2010 - 11:09 AM, said:

Hi everyone, I am a SHIA and wants to understand the KHALIFAT as an institution (not discussing the personalities disrespectfully or in an insulting manner.) please shed your unbiased views in the light of QURAN only. As I am new to this forum and really really want to understand KHALIFAT from QURANIC point of view. Please do not quote HADIS at this time. (Please do not insult me because I was born in a SHIA family, I promise that during the entire discussion I will be unbiased and logical) Looking forward for an articulate and direct answer. ( I am on this forum neither to challenge nor to be get challenged, but I am showing courage to come to this discussion forum by challenging my own self, looking forward for SIRAT-E-MUSTAQEEM) Best Regards

Salam.
I am going to give you some verses of Quran regarding Khalifat.Hope it will help you and you would understand Ahlel Sunnah wajammat point of view on this matter under these Verses,Since our faith depends on Quran and Sunnah of Rasool Allah(pbuh).

As i said our believe depends on Quran and Sunnah of Rasool Allah(pbuh)....Allah Almighty order us......
(24:54) Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, you should note it well that the Messenger is responsible for the duty entrusted to him and you are responsible for the duty entrusted to you. If you obey him, you will be rightly guided, for the responsibility of the Messenger is only to convey the Message clearly to you.

About Khalafat......read the last part of above verse and then below verse,matter should be crystal cleared to you i hope.

(24:55) Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do righteous deeds, that He will make them successors in the land just as He made those who passed away before them, and that He will establish their religion, which He has approved for them, on strong foundations and will change their (present) state of fear into peace and security. Let them worship Me and associate none with Me; and the one who disbelieves after this," shall be of those who are perverse transgressors.

Explaination.

When in the beginning this promise was held out by Allah, the Muslims were living in a state of fear and Islam had not yet taken firm roots even in Hejaz. A few years later this state of fear not only gave way to peace and equanimity but Islam also spread outside Arabia to large parts of Africa and Asia, and it became firmly established not only in its own land of birth but outside it as well. This is a historical proof of the fact that Allah fulfilled His promise in the times of Hadrat Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman (may Allah he pleased with them all). No right thinking person, therefore, can have any doubt that the Khilafat of the first three Caliphs has been authenticated by the Qur'an itself and Allah Himself has testified to their being pious Believers. If anybody still has a doubt, he should read the address of Hadrat 'AIi in Nahjal Balaghah, which was meant to dissuade Hadrat 'Umar from going personally to tight against the Iranians. He said:

"Our success in this work is not dependent on numerical strength; it is the religion of Allah for which He Himself has opened ways. We are grateful to Him for His help and succor which has enabled us to serve its cause till it has been raised to its present glory Allah Himself has said: `Allah has promised to those among you, who believe and do righteous deeds that He will make them successors in the land .... ' Allah will certainly fulfill this promise and will help the armies of Islam. The position of the Caliph in Islam is like that of the string in a necklace of pearls. If the string breaks, the pearls scatter away and the order is destroyed. Once scattered and dispersed, it becomes difficult to collect them again. No doubt the Arabs are small in number, but they have been increased by Islam and strengthened by unity. You should therefore stick to Madinah like the pivot and make the grindstone of Arabia rotate about you and guide the war-machine from here. Once you leave this place, your entire organization will begin to crumble, then you will start feeling more worried about the dangers behind than the enemies in front. Moreover, the Iranians will concentrate their whole attention on you, and will like to exterminate you, taking you as the main and only hurdle in their way to victory. As for your apprehension that they have come out in much greater strength, I would say that hitherto we have been fighting them not merely on the strength of numbers, but have been putting them to rout on the strength of Allah's help and succor." Any discerning reader can see for himself as to which side is being held by Hadrat `Ali as worthy of Allah's promise with regard to successorship in the land. (By Madoudi in his Tahfeem ul Quran).

After that Verse where Allah mentioned to whom He would give Khalafat,
(24:56) Therefore, establish Salat, pay the Zakat dues and obey the Messenger; it is expected that you will be shown mercy.

In Surah An-Nisa Allah Almighty states ............

(4:59) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end.

It is cleared from above mentioned verse that the final authority is Allah and His Messenger(pbuh).

It lays down the following principles as permanent guidelines:

(1) In the Islamic order of life, God alone is the focus of loyalty and obedience. A Muslim is the servant of God before anything else, and obedience and loyalty to God constitute the centre and axis of both the individual and collective life of a Muslim. Other claims to loyalty and obedience are acceptable only insofar as they remain secondary and subservient, and do not compete with those owed to God. All loyalties which may tend to challenge the primacy of man's loyalty to God must be rejected. This has been expressed by the Prophet (peace be on him) in the following words: 'There may be no obedience to any creature in disobedience to the Creator.' (Muslim, 'Iman', 37; Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 3, p. 472

How Muslim should chose the leaders for themselves,regarding the matter Allah stated in Quran.
“And they conduct their affairs with mutual consultation.” (Shura42:38))

Hope this wold help you,Inshallah.
Wasalam.

#7 swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 11:52 AM

Imamah: In Islamic terminology al-imamah (Imamate) means 'universal authority in all religious and secular affairs, in succession to the Prophet'[1]. al-Imam means 'the man who, in succession to the Prophet, has the right to the absolute command of the Muslims in all religious and secular affairs.[ al-'Allamah al-Hilli: al-Babu 'l-hadi 'ashar, Eng. tr. W. M. Miller, p. 62; Mughniyyah: Falsafat Islamiyyah, p. 392.]

KHILAFAH: The word al-khilafah means 'to succeed' and al-khalifah means 'the successor'. In Islamic terminology al-khilafah and al-khalifah practically signify the same meanings as al-ima'mah and al-ima'm repectively.(thus for imamah see above)

Now we find that Khaliph is the person who has absolute authority over religious and SECULAR affairs. But did you see any shia Imam's khilafah except hz ali(ra) and hz hassan(ra) fitting in the defination they themselves made?

And to hide the flaws in their theories, they will now differentiate the khilafat in two categories.
1. khalifa spiritually.
2. khalipha of government.

But if we see the proves they give to show that the khalipha was made by Allah , we will realize that Allah doesn't make these categories. Because actually the khalipha is a cumulatively spiritual guide as well as government ruler. As proved from the shia book itself.

Its not that it has categories that it can be either spiritual guide or government ruler, not at all. The term caliphate refers to a traditional form of government based on the religion of islam. Khalipha is cumilatively spritual guide as well as government ruler.

This is the basic one should keep in mind that, Khalipha is the one who shares both positions spritual guide as well as government ruler. Now if some one says that Allah makes a khalipha then its compulsary that the khalipha should be spirtual as well as government ruler, otherwise its against the rule of Allah which they had used for themselves.

Shia would try to give deceptioal answer trying to differentiate calipha spirtually and chalipha politically, But one should note that there nothing such categories in that. The khalipha in one and all spiritual guide as well as goverment ruler. One being only spiritual guide cannot claim that he is khalipha, its compulsary that he should also be ruler of government.

Now after this basic some points to note from history:

1. If one says that Khalipha is made by Allah(spiritual guide as well as ruler of government) then how come Hz ali when was offered the position of being ruler of government denied it and said that being a wazir is better.? It means that he denied the position that was granted by Allah.

Here they might say that he was spiritual guide but denied political leadership… So question arises that isnt the political rule too is granted from Allah according to shia defination? IF No then why like the fools the crticize hz abubakar(ra) to stanching the khilafah granted by Allah. If yes then how did hz ali(ra) dare to deny the gift of Allah? Mazallah

2. The ahadees which shia try to use to prove that prophet(Saw) made hz ali(ra) khalipha after him then when hz ali(ra) , but later when he was offered the khilafat , How come he denied the government rulership and didnt he disobeyed the command of prophet(Saw) , nauzbillah.

3. Hz hasan(ra) gave the khilafat in the hands of hz muavia , Now the question to the shias is who makes the khaliph? Allah . So how come Hz hassan gave khilafat to hz mwavia and made him khalipha? How can hz hassan(ra) make ruler when it's a right of Allah to make? And if he was correct then was that the will of Allah that hz muawia(ra) to be made ruler?

4. Accept 2 shia imams, none of the 11 can be called as khaliphas, because they were never Government rulers which is compulsary to be called as khalipha.

This post has been edited by swords_of_sunnah: 15 July 2010 - 12:03 PM

BEWARE OF SHIA BECAUSE THEIR IMAM TAUGHT THEM THIS:
Imam Al-sajjad (as) said: If you see people of suspicion and innovation – other than shias or new shia – then show disownment from them and abuse them much, backbit them, make false accusations on them – that is, backbite them by attributing lies on them and make false accusations on them ('Buhtaan') …
[tanbiah al-khawatir v.2 p.162 – wasael al-shia v.11 p. 508 – Nahj al-intisaar p.152]

#8 Ameen

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 07:11 PM

Ali Shah Hussain, on 14 July 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

Ameen, on 14 July 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;

SHIA014, on 08 July 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Hi everyone, I am a SHIA and wants to understand the KHALIFAT as an institution (not discussing the personalities disrespectfully or in an insulting manner.) please shed your unbiased views in the light of QURAN only. As I am new to this forum and really really want to understand KHALIFAT from QURANIC point of view. Please do not quote HADIS at this time. (Please do not insult me because I was born in a SHIA family, I promise that during the entire discussion I will be unbiased and logical) Looking forward for an articulate and direct answer.&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;( I am on this forum neither to challenge nor to be get challenged, but I am showing courage to come to this discussion forum by challenging my own self, looking forward for SIRAT-E-MUSTAQEEM)&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Best Regards&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. The boys running this site are prejudice and bias. They believe in favouritism and taking sides. They also love to acuse and abuse. Their belief and faith is that anybody who disagrees with them is wrong and they do not consider Shia as Muslims. Read their articles/posts and you will find out. They do not discuss/debate according to reality and facts, with sense and logic and being just and fair. So you will not get much out of these lads. Anyway! Lets continue. Messengerhood and Prophecy are Allah created positions/status/grades etc. Allah decides who was worthy of being a Messenger or Prophet to govern, guide mankind and to be a connection between him and mankind because we can not approach him or have a direct link with him. The picking and choosing of Messengers and Prophets was not left to mankind it has allways been Allah's decision/responsibility. All Muslims believe in this but differ on the next step. The Shia believe that Imaamath and Khilafath are also Allah created positions/status/grades etc and just as the Messengers/Prophets Allah decides who was worthy of being an Imaam or a Khaleefa. The Shia believe that this part of the job was not left to mankind (people) just as the first job wasn't. The Sunni believe that Messengerhood and Prophecy has ended, Islam has been completed, the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] did not name a successor therefore the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath was left in the hands of mankind (people). Some Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] left the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath in the hands of the Muslim Ummah. Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa. Take a good look. Wassalaam.&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Salam Ameen. SOS said rightly advise you to sart writing novels............................no comments on yours Bull Shit.. You said.[Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa.] Ameen Indeed you are misguided so please dont misgiude others. Let see waht Allah Almighty has stated in Quran vrse 30 Surah Al- Baqara.. (2:30) Just recall the time when your Lord said to the angels , &quot;I am going to appoint a vicegerent on the Earth.&quot; They humbly enquired, &quot;Are you going to appoint such a one as will cause disorder and shed blood on the Earth? We are already engaged in hymning Your praise, and hallowing Your name&quot; In very next verse clear the matter..... (2:31) Allah replied, &quot;I know what you do not know.&quot; After this he taught Adam the names of all things. Then He set these before the angels and asked, &quot;Tell Me the names of these things, if you are right (in thinking that the appointment of a vicegerent will cause disorder)&quot; (2:32) They replied, &quot;Glory be to You. You alone are free from defect. We possess only that much knowledge which You have given us. Indeed You alone are All-Knowing and All-Wise.&quot; So is it about yours imaginary Imamate theory?????????????????????????? or about Abul Bashir Hazrat Adam (pbuh)? Second verse you quoted in favour of your deviant cult....Let See what Allah Almighty stated....... (2:124) Recall to mind that when his Lord put Abraham to test, in certain things and he fulfilled all of them, He said, &quot;I am going to make you the leader of mankind.&quot; Abraham humbly asked, &quot;Does this promise apply to my descendants also?&quot; He replied, &quot;My promise does not apply to the transgressors.&quot; Following verse just to clear the matter.......... (2:125) And remember that We made this House (the Ka'bah) the centre and sanctuary for mankind and enjoined the people to dedicate to worship the place where Abraham used to stand for prayer, and We urged Abraham and Ismail to keep My House pure for those who would go round it and those who would retire to it for devotion and prayer and for those who would bow down and prostrate themselves there in worhsip. Ameen the verse refer to whom and to whom you to refer it.................................Fear Allah.................................... Regarding you said that [Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc.] I have already answered you in detail where you still to answerless my questions............... We have Fiqa differences not Aqeeda(Creed) one.you shia have numerous one based on Creed/belief........Thats why you have over 200 Shias sects,every sects claim to be having right Imam since Shiaism main piller is imamate................................................ just go their and see the difference in Aqeda...................www.akhbari.org Wasalm.

Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. Excuse me! Did you say BULL SHIT! If I respond in a similar manner them I will get a warning or probably banned. So you know how much justice, fairness and equality there is on this site. It is absolutely clear from the verses that I have put forward it is Allah who decides the Khaleefa and the Imaam. Give me one reference where Allah has said decide and choose amongst yourselves. It is Allah who decides and chooses amongst us or from us. It does not matter if it is a Messenger, Prophet, Khaleefa or Imaam Allah only Allah decides. You spoke about Hazrath Adam [as]. Who decided and chose Hazrath Adam [as]? It was Allah. Who made Hazrath Adam [as] Khaleefa? Allah. You spoke about Hazrath Abraham [as]. Who decided and chose Hazrath Abraham [as]? It was Allah. Who made Hazrath Abraham [as] Imaam? Allah. These are just two examples there are many more. Humans have allways had the greed and the will to govern themselves because they seem to think they know better. It is clear in the Holy Quran and I am sure you have come across it. In Surah-e-Baqarah Allah speaks to mankind that I have sent one messenger after the other and you murdered them. [Meh neh aik nishani keh baad dusri behji tho tum neh unka katal kiya]. Allah speaks about the killings and murders of the messengers because people ignored them and wanted to rule themselves. You have not replied about the 12 princes/leaders/Khaleefa that ruled by the will of Allah after Hazrath Moses [as] with in the Isralites. They were from the family of Hazrath Moses [as]. [Musa (as) ki zuriyath seh] Did the Isralites accept them? NO! They were abused, tortured then murdered. The Isralites goverened themselves and took matters into their own hands. The Prophet Muhammed said just like Moses there will be 12 princes from my family [meri zuriyath seh] who will govern the Muslim Ummah after me by the will of Allah. So what did the Muslim Ummah do to 11 of them? Abuse them, tortured them then murdered them. The names along with the nick names[naam aur laqab] are crystal clear in the authentic books of the Ahle Sunnah and no Sunni scholar [Aalim] has ever denied this. Many things along with this are kept from the public. Ahle Sunnah differ in Aqeedah as well as Fiqh. Look at Aaima-e-Arbaa. The 4 Imaams. One example: They do not agree on where the hands should be placed during prayers, a huge difference. All 4 differ. Never mind about the others. The Prophet [pbuh] said my nation will divde into 73 different sects. one will be right all the rest wrong. [Meri ummath keh tehathar frikeh honge aik jannathi hoga baki dosaki]. Now I have said this before do not acuse the Prophet [pbuh] of lying or getting it wrong by saying Shia already have over 200 sects which is a known and open lie. You do not decide the Prophet [pbuh] does. Out of the 73 everybody classifies themselves as Muslims along with the Shia but according to the Prophet [pbuh] only one will be true Muslims the rest Kafir. So sunshine Ahle Sunnah are more than one so lets leave the Shia out of this one of you will go to heaven the rest will burn in hell with the Shia. Right? [Apne gireban meh jahank kar dekoh aur apne aap ko sehih karo]. Shias main piller is not Imaamath. They have 5 pillars. Never mind you believe in only 3 pillars. Yes ofcourse! You do not consider Allah as fair and just so what can anybody expect from you?Wassalaam.

This post has been edited by Ameen: 15 July 2010 - 07:17 PM

#9 swords_of_sunnah

Advanced Member

Group: Moderator
Posts: 3,784
Joined: 02-February 09
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Posted 15 July 2010 - 08:32 PM

Quote

Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. Excuse me! Did you say BULL SHIT! If I respond in a similar manner them I will get a warning or probably banned. So you know how much justice, fairness and equality there is on this site

Walikumsalam, million times more than shia forums, where you get banned just exposing shia faith, leave aside using derogatory words.

#10 ya rasulallah (s.a.w)

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 01:41 AM

if i am not mistaken...you have provided 4 ayaats to prove khilafat is right....so are you saying that having faith in khilafat is actually one of the basis of ones belief??what about the person who doesnt see the khalifa's as NOT RIGHT??

#11 Ali Shah Hussain

Advanced Member

Group: Senior Member
Posts: 567
Joined: 16-April 10
Gender: Male
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Posted 16 July 2010 - 05:34 AM

ya rasulallah (s.a.w), on 15 July 2010 - 08:41 PM, said:

if i am not mistaken...you have provided 4 ayaats to prove khilafat is right....so are you saying that having faith in khilafat is actually one of the basis of ones belief??what about the person who doesnt see the khalifa's as NOT RIGHT??

Dont assume anything from yours own side............................. For a While read this verse and think about yours belief................................where you stand? And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has been clearly shown to him and follows other than the believers(Companions) path We shall keep him in the path he has chosen and burn him in Hell. What an evil destination (Quran 4:115)

Abdullah(r.a) narrated that the Prophet(pbuh)said, ‘The best of people are those in my generation,i.e(Companions)…’ (saheeh of bukhaari)

Abdullah bin Amr(r.a) narrated that the Messenger of Allah(pbuh) said, ‘The children of Israel split into seventy two sects and my Ummah will split into seventy three sects, all of them in the Fire except one.’ They asked, which one is that O Messenger of Allah?’ he said, ‘That which I and my companions are upon.’ (sunan of Tirmidi/authenticated by Albaani)

This post has been edited by Ali Shah Hussain: 16 July 2010 - 05:45 AM

#12 Ali Shah Hussain

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Group: Senior Member
Posts: 567
Joined: 16-April 10
Gender: Male
Religion:Islam (Sunni)

Posted 16 July 2010 - 05:40 AM

Ameen, on 15 July 2010 - 02:11 PM, said:

Ali Shah Hussain, on 14 July 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;

Ameen, on 14 July 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;

SHIA014, on 08 July 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Hi everyone, I am a SHIA and wants to understand the KHALIFAT as an institution (not discussing the personalities disrespectfully or in an insulting manner.) please shed your unbiased views in the light of QURAN only. As I am new to this forum and really really want to understand KHALIFAT from QURANIC point of view. Please do not quote HADIS at this time. (Please do not insult me because I was born in a SHIA family, I promise that during the entire discussion I will be unbiased and logical) Looking forward for an articulate and direct answer.&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;( I am on this forum neither to challenge nor to be get challenged, but I am showing courage to come to this discussion forum by challenging my own self, looking forward for SIRAT-E-MUSTAQEEM)&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Best Regards&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. The boys running this site are prejudice and bias. They believe in favouritism and taking sides. They also love to acuse and abuse. Their belief and faith is that anybody who disagrees with them is wrong and they do not consider Shia as Muslims. Read their articles/posts and you will find out. They do not discuss/debate according to reality and facts, with sense and logic and being just and fair. So you will not get much out of these lads. Anyway! Lets continue. Messengerhood and Prophecy are Allah created positions/status/grades etc. Allah decides who was worthy of being a Messenger or Prophet to govern, guide mankind and to be a connection between him and mankind because we can not approach him or have a direct link with him. The picking and choosing of Messengers and Prophets was not left to mankind it has allways been Allah's decision/responsibility. All Muslims believe in this but differ on the next step. The Shia believe that Imaamath and Khilafath are also Allah created positions/status/grades etc and just as the Messengers/Prophets Allah decides who was worthy of being an Imaam or a Khaleefa. The Shia believe that this part of the job was not left to mankind (people) just as the first job wasn't. The Sunni believe that Messengerhood and Prophecy has ended, Islam has been completed, the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] did not name a successor therefore the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath was left in the hands of mankind (people). Some Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] left the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath in the hands of the Muslim Ummah. Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa. Take a good look. Wassalaam.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Salam Ameen.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; SOS said rightly advise you to sart writing novels............................no comments on yours Bull Shit..&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;You said.[Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa.]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Ameen Indeed you are misguided so please dont misgiude others.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Let see waht Allah Almighty has stated in Quran vrse 30 Surah Al- Baqara..&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;(2:30) Just recall the time when your Lord said to the angels , &amp;amp;quot;I am going to appoint a vicegerent on the Earth.&amp;amp;quot; They humbly enquired, &amp;amp;quot;Are you going to appoint such a one as will cause disorder and shed blood on the Earth? We are already engaged in hymning Your praise, and hallowing Your name&amp;amp;quot;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;In very next verse clear the matter.....&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;(2:31) Allah replied, &amp;amp;quot;I know what you do not know.&amp;amp;quot; After this he taught Adam the names of all things. Then He set these before the angels and asked, &amp;amp;quot;Tell Me the names of these things, if you are right (in thinking that the appointment of a vicegerent will cause disorder)&amp;amp;quot;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;(2:32) They replied, &amp;amp;quot;Glory be to You. You alone are free from defect. We possess only that much knowledge which You have given us. Indeed You alone are All-Knowing and All-Wise.&amp;amp;quot; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;So is it about yours imaginary Imamate theory?????????????????????????? or about Abul Bashir Hazrat Adam (pbuh)?&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Second verse you quoted in favour of your deviant cult....Let See what Allah Almighty stated.......&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;(2:124) Recall to mind that when his Lord put Abraham to test, in certain things and he fulfilled all of them, He said, &amp;amp;quot;I am going to make you the leader of mankind.&amp;amp;quot; Abraham humbly asked, &amp;amp;quot;Does this promise apply to my descendants also?&amp;amp;quot; He replied, &amp;amp;quot;My promise does not apply to the transgressors.&amp;amp;quot;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Following verse just to clear the matter..........&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;(2:125) And remember that We made this House (the Ka'bah) the centre and sanctuary for mankind and enjoined the people to dedicate to worship the place where Abraham used to stand for prayer, and We urged Abraham and Ismail to keep My House pure for those who would go round it and those who would retire to it for devotion and prayer and for those who would bow down and prostrate themselves there in worhsip.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Ameen the verse refer to whom and to whom you to refer it.................................Fear Allah....................................&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Regarding you said that [Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc.]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;I have already answered you in detail where you still to answerless my questions...............&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;We have Fiqa differences not Aqeeda(Creed) one.you shia have numerous one based on Creed/belief........Thats why you have over 200 Shias sects,every sects claim to be having right Imam since Shiaism main piller is imamate................................................&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;just go their and see the difference in Aqeda...................www.akhbari.org&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Wasalm.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;

&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. Excuse me! Did you say BULL SHIT! If I respond in a similar manner them I will get a warning or probably banned. So you know how much justice, fairness and equality there is on this site. It is absolutely clear from the verses that I have put forward it is Allah who decides the Khaleefa and the Imaam. Give me one reference where Allah has said decide and choose amongst yourselves. It is Allah who decides and chooses amongst us or from us. It does not matter if it is a Messenger, Prophet, Khaleefa or Imaam Allah only Allah decides. You spoke about Hazrath Adam [as]. Who decided and chose Hazrath Adam [as]? It was Allah. Who made Hazrath Adam [as] Khaleefa? Allah. You spoke about Hazrath Abraham [as]. Who decided and chose Hazrath Abraham [as]? It was Allah. Who made Hazrath Abraham [as] Imaam? Allah. These are just two examples there are many more. Humans have allways had the greed and the will to govern themselves because they seem to think they know better. It is clear in the Holy Quran and I am sure you have come across it. In Surah-e-Baqarah Allah speaks to mankind that I have sent one messenger after the other and you murdered them. [Meh neh aik nishani keh baad dusri behji tho tum neh unka katal kiya]. Allah speaks about the killings and murders of the messengers because people ignored them and wanted to rule themselves. You have not replied about the 12 princes/leaders/Khaleefa that ruled by the will of Allah after Hazrath Moses [as] with in the Isralites. They were from the family of Hazrath Moses [as]. [Musa (as) ki zuriyath seh] Did the Isralites accept them? NO! They were abused, tortured then murdered. The Isralites goverened themselves and took matters into their own hands. The Prophet Muhammed said just like Moses there will be 12 princes from my family [meri zuriyath seh] who will govern the Muslim Ummah after me by the will of Allah. So what did the Muslim Ummah do to 11 of them? Abuse them, tortured them then murdered them. The names along with the nick names[naam aur laqab] are crystal clear in the authentic books of the Ahle Sunnah and no Sunni scholar [Aalim] has ever denied this. Many things along with this are kept from the public. Ahle Sunnah differ in Aqeedah as well as Fiqh. Look at Aaima-e-Arbaa. The 4 Imaams. One example: They do not agree on where the hands should be placed during prayers, a huge difference. All 4 differ. Never mind about the others. The Prophet [pbuh] said my nation will divde into 73 different sects. one will be right all the rest wrong. [Meri ummath keh tehathar frikeh honge aik jannathi hoga baki dosaki]. Now I have said this before do not acuse the Prophet [pbuh] of lying or getting it wrong by saying Shia already have over 200 sects which is a known and open lie. You do not decide the Prophet [pbuh] does. Out of the 73 everybody classifies themselves as Muslims along with the Shia but according to the Prophet [pbuh] only one will be true Muslims the rest Kafir. So sunshine Ahle Sunnah are more than one so lets leave the Shia out of this one of you will go to heaven the rest will burn in hell with the Shia. Right? [Apne gireban meh jahank kar dekoh aur apne aap ko sehih karo]. Shias main piller is not Imaamath. They have 5 pillars. Never mind you believe in only 3 pillars. Yes ofcourse! You do not consider Allah as fair and just so what can anybody expect from you?Wassalaam.

Salam Ameen, Yours same non sense i have refuted more then 3 or 4 times already on another thread..............where you remianed answerless..........................go and read agian to get shocked agian....................................listen agian you are not in this 73 sects list.................200 shias sect i have already proven it to you from yours own garbage sources which is so called the teaching of Ahlelbay.............Mazallah.....Shias has already cross the limits of 73 sects so you cannot be included in the list or limit prophesized by Prophet(pbuh) Since Prophet(pbuh) has set a limit of 73 how come you will be among this 73 ,if we take yours 200 sects in case,then the prophecy of Allah Messenger(pbuh) would be proved wrong Mazallah.........Go and get some knowledge..........half quoting Quranic verses and hadees will take you to Cave as well....... Wasalam for now.

This post has been edited by Ali Shah Hussain: 16 July 2010 - 05:53 AM

#13 Ameen

Member

Group: Senior Member
Posts: 348
Joined: 09-January 10
Gender:Male
Gender: Male
Religion:Shiaism

Posted 16 July 2010 - 09:31 PM

Ali Shah Hussain, on 16 July 2010 - 01:40 AM, said:

Ameen, on 15 July 2010 - 02:11 PM, said:

&lt;br /&gt;

Ali Shah Hussain, on 14 July 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;

Ameen, on 14 July 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;

SHIA014, on 08 July 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Hi everyone, I am a SHIA and wants to understand the KHALIFAT as an institution (not discussing the personalities disrespectfully or in an insulting manner.) please shed your unbiased views in the light of QURAN only. As I am new to this forum and really really want to understand KHALIFAT from QURANIC point of view. Please do not quote HADIS at this time. (Please do not insult me because I was born in a SHIA family, I promise that during the entire discussion I will be unbiased and logical) Looking forward for an articulate and direct answer.&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;( I am on this forum neither to challenge nor to be get challenged, but I am showing courage to come to this discussion forum by challenging my own self, looking forward for SIRAT-E-MUSTAQEEM)&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Best Regards&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. The boys running this site are prejudice and bias. They believe in favouritism and taking sides. They also love to acuse and abuse. Their belief and faith is that anybody who disagrees with them is wrong and they do not consider Shia as Muslims. Read their articles/posts and you will find out. They do not discuss/debate according to reality and facts, with sense and logic and being just and fair. So you will not get much out of these lads. Anyway! Lets continue. Messengerhood and Prophecy are Allah created positions/status/grades etc. Allah decides who was worthy of being a Messenger or Prophet to govern, guide mankind and to be a connection between him and mankind because we can not approach him or have a direct link with him. The picking and choosing of Messengers and Prophets was not left to mankind it has allways been Allah's decision/responsibility. All Muslims believe in this but differ on the next step. The Shia believe that Imaamath and Khilafath are also Allah created positions/status/grades etc and just as the Messengers/Prophets Allah decides who was worthy of being an Imaam or a Khaleefa. The Shia believe that this part of the job was not left to mankind (people) just as the first job wasn't. The Sunni believe that Messengerhood and Prophecy has ended, Islam has been completed, the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] did not name a successor therefore the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath was left in the hands of mankind (people). Some Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] left the matter of Imaamath and Khilafath in the hands of the Muslim Ummah. Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa. Take a good look. Wassalaam.&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Salam Ameen.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt; SOS said rightly advise you to sart writing novels............................no comments on yours Bull Shit..&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;You said.[Here is the Quranic reference regarding Imaamath, Surah-e-Baqarah, Ayath number 124. Allah deciding on who will be an Imaam.Take a good look. Here is the Quranic reference regarding Khilaafath, Surah-e-Baqrah, Ayath number 30. Allah deciding on who will be a Khaleefa.]&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Ameen Indeed you are misguided so please dont misgiude others.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Let see waht Allah Almighty has stated in Quran vrse 30 Surah Al- Baqara..&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;(2:30) Just recall the time when your Lord said to the angels , &amp;amp;amp;quot;I am going to appoint a vicegerent on the Earth.&amp;amp;amp;quot; They humbly enquired, &amp;amp;amp;quot;Are you going to appoint such a one as will cause disorder and shed blood on the Earth? We are already engaged in hymning Your praise, and hallowing Your name&amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;In very next verse clear the matter.....&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;(2:31) Allah replied, &amp;amp;amp;quot;I know what you do not know.&amp;amp;amp;quot; After this he taught Adam the names of all things. Then He set these before the angels and asked, &amp;amp;amp;quot;Tell Me the names of these things, if you are right (in thinking that the appointment of a vicegerent will cause disorder)&amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;(2:32) They replied, &amp;amp;amp;quot;Glory be to You. You alone are free from defect. We possess only that much knowledge which You have given us. Indeed You alone are All-Knowing and All-Wise.&amp;amp;amp;quot; &amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;So is it about yours imaginary Imamate theory?????????????????????????? or about Abul Bashir Hazrat Adam (pbuh)?&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Second verse you quoted in favour of your deviant cult....Let See what Allah Almighty stated.......&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;(2:124) Recall to mind that when his Lord put Abraham to test, in certain things and he fulfilled all of them, He said, &amp;amp;amp;quot;I am going to make you the leader of mankind.&amp;amp;amp;quot; Abraham humbly asked, &amp;amp;amp;quot;Does this promise apply to my descendants also?&amp;amp;amp;quot; He replied, &amp;amp;amp;quot;My promise does not apply to the transgressors.&amp;amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Following verse just to clear the matter..........&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;(2:125) And remember that We made this House (the Ka'bah) the centre and sanctuary for mankind and enjoined the people to dedicate to worship the place where Abraham used to stand for prayer, and We urged Abraham and Ismail to keep My House pure for those who would go round it and those who would retire to it for devotion and prayer and for those who would bow down and prostrate themselves there in worhsip.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Ameen the verse refer to whom and to whom you to refer it.................................Fear Allah....................................&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Regarding you said that [Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaath are a large group of people with different belief/faith/opinion/point of view etc.]&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;I have already answered you in detail where you still to answerless my questions...............&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;We have Fiqa differences not Aqeeda(Creed) one.you shia have numerous one based on Creed/belief........Thats why you have over 200 Shias sects,every sects claim to be having right Imam since Shiaism main piller is imamate................................................&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;just go their and see the difference in Aqeda...................www.akhbari.org&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Wasalm.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. Excuse me! Did you say BULL SHIT! If I respond in a similar manner them I will get a warning or probably banned. So you know how much justice, fairness and equality there is on this site. It is absolutely clear from the verses that I have put forward it is Allah who decides the Khaleefa and the Imaam. Give me one reference where Allah has said decide and choose amongst yourselves. It is Allah who decides and chooses amongst us or from us. It does not matter if it is a Messenger, Prophet, Khaleefa or Imaam Allah only Allah decides. You spoke about Hazrath Adam [as]. Who decided and chose Hazrath Adam [as]? It was Allah. Who made Hazrath Adam [as] Khaleefa? Allah. You spoke about Hazrath Abraham [as]. Who decided and chose Hazrath Abraham [as]? It was Allah. Who made Hazrath Abraham [as] Imaam? Allah. These are just two examples there are many more. Humans have allways had the greed and the will to govern themselves because they seem to think they know better. It is clear in the Holy Quran and I am sure you have come across it. In Surah-e-Baqarah Allah speaks to mankind that I have sent one messenger after the other and you murdered them. [Meh neh aik nishani keh baad dusri behji tho tum neh unka katal kiya]. Allah speaks about the killings and murders of the messengers because people ignored them and wanted to rule themselves. You have not replied about the 12 princes/leaders/Khaleefa that ruled by the will of Allah after Hazrath Moses [as] with in the Isralites. They were from the family of Hazrath Moses [as]. [Musa (as) ki zuriyath seh] Did the Isralites accept them? NO! They were abused, tortured then murdered. The Isralites goverened themselves and took matters into their own hands. The Prophet Muhammed said just like Moses there will be 12 princes from my family [meri zuriyath seh] who will govern the Muslim Ummah after me by the will of Allah. So what did the Muslim Ummah do to 11 of them? Abuse them, tortured them then murdered them. The names along with the nick names[naam aur laqab] are crystal clear in the authentic books of the Ahle Sunnah and no Sunni scholar [Aalim] has ever denied this. Many things along with this are kept from the public. Ahle Sunnah differ in Aqeedah as well as Fiqh. Look at Aaima-e-Arbaa. The 4 Imaams. One example: They do not agree on where the hands should be placed during prayers, a huge difference. All 4 differ. Never mind about the others. The Prophet [pbuh] said my nation will divde into 73 different sects. one will be right all the rest wrong. [Meri ummath keh tehathar frikeh honge aik jannathi hoga baki dosaki]. Now I have said this before do not acuse the Prophet [pbuh] of lying or getting it wrong by saying Shia already have over 200 sects which is a known and open lie. You do not decide the Prophet [pbuh] does. Out of the 73 everybody classifies themselves as Muslims along with the Shia but according to the Prophet [pbuh] only one will be true Muslims the rest Kafir. So sunshine Ahle Sunnah are more than one so lets leave the Shia out of this one of you will go to heaven the rest will burn in hell with the Shia. Right? [Apne gireban meh jahank kar dekoh aur apne aap ko sehih karo]. Shias main piller is not Imaamath. They have 5 pillars. Never mind you believe in only 3 pillars. Yes ofcourse! You do not consider Allah as fair and just so what can anybody expect from you?Wassalaam.&lt;br /&gt;

&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Salam Ameen, Yours same non sense i have refuted more then 3 or 4 times already on another thread..............where you remianed answerless..........................go and read agian to get shocked agian....................................listen agian you are not in this 73 sects list.................200 shias sect i have already proven it to you from yours own garbage sources which is so called the teaching of Ahlelbay.............Mazallah.....Shias has already cross the limits of 73 sects so you cannot be included in the list or limit prophesized by Prophet(pbuh) Since Prophet(pbuh) has set a limit of 73 how come you will be among this 73 ,if we take yours 200 sects in case,then the prophecy of Allah Messenger(pbuh) would be proved wrong Mazallah.........Go and get some knowledge..........half quoting Quranic verses and hadees will take you to Cave as well....... Wasalam for now.

Assalaamo-Alaikum my dear brother. 200 Shia sects. Probably you would like to name them since you claim to know more than the Prophet [pbuh]. Don't go against the Prophet's [pbuh] Hadith. Nobody gave you the authority to decide. Ok! The Shia are not from the 73. So tell me which one of you is on the right path [going to heaven] and the rest will burn in hell. Come on boy answer me! You said the Shia are not from the 73. Those who take the Sunnah from the best source are not and you are who take the Sunnah from tom, dick, fred and harry that came around years and years after the Prophet [pbuh]. To be honest I don't know where to start from. Your way of wuzu does not match the Quran, your nimaz is not the same as the Prophet's [pbuh], you break your fast against the Quran, you recite Turabia which the Prophet [pbuh] banned. You do not believe that Allah is not just and fair, You believe that Allah is responsible for the good as well as the evil, [Kherum-Minallah-Wa-Sharum-Minallah], You believe that the Prophet [pbuh] was operated on because he was not pure to begin with, You believe that the Prophet [pbuh] was not educated so he was taught. LOOK AT YOURSELVES! Aur bari bari bathein karthe ho. I do not care what you think or say about me. Let the people decide. Log aap ki aur meri bathein par rehein hein un ko faisla karneh doh woh bewakuf nehi hai. Kon bakwas kar raha hai aur kis neh kis ki bath ka jawab nehi dia log bathien geh. Wassalaam for now. Tell your parents to teach you some manners how to speak to someone.

#14 Ameen

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 09:32 PM

Ali Shah Hussain, on 16 July 2010 - 01:40 AM, said:

Ameen, on 15 July 2010 - 02:11 PM, said:

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Ali Shah Hussain, on 14 July 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

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Ameen, on 14 July 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

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SHIA014, on 08 July 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

#15 Ameen

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 09:33 PM

Ali Shah Hussain, on 16 July 2010 - 01:40 AM, said:

Ameen, on 15 July 2010 - 02:11 PM, said:

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Ali Shah Hussain, on 14 July 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

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Ameen, on 14 July 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

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SHIA014, on 08 July 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

#16 Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 11:46 PM

Salam Ameen. When some one (Jahal) like you claiming something and he doesnt know what he is saying,he end up in embarrassing manner with tail between his leg and fingre between his teeth.Off course readers are reading everything we are posting here but they would be definatly laughing on you because you havent got any knowledge about yours own Cult and you are here to discuss others.. I am saying agian that the Hadees of 73 sects is authentic,You Shias are exculded from it since you have more then 200 sects,Twelver shia scholar Al-Nowbakhti in the third century after the hijra said in his book "Firaq Al-Shia" (Sects of Shiasim) that at that time 200 and something sects of shia existed. That is at the third centruy after hijra. Only Allah knows how many they are now???????????????????????????? While Prophet(pbuh) has clearly said that my Ummah would be divided in 73 sects,How come Prophet Prophecy can be wrong since shias has crossed the limit of 73.....Hence you are not one of them.Full stop........................ This hadees is authentic and Prophet(pbuh) has pointed who would be saved too, Lets read the Hadees...................... Abdullah bin Amr(r.a) narrated that the Messenger of Allah(pbuh) said, ‘The children of Israel split into seventy two sects and my Ummah will split into seventy three sects, all of them in the Fire except one.’ They asked, which one is that O Messenger of Allah?’ he said, ‘That which I and my companions are upon.’ (sunan of Tirmidi/authenticated by Albaani) Abdullah(r.a) narrated that the Prophet(pbuh)said, ‘The best of people are those in my generation,i.e(Companions)…’ (saheeh of bukhaari) This Saying of the our Great Prophet(pbuh) has got the backing of Quran as well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has been clearly shown to him and follows other than the believers(Companions) path We shall keep him in the path he has chosen and burn him in Hell. What an evil destination (Quran 4:115) You said we say that Prophet(pbuh) [You believe that the Prophet [pbuh] was operated on because he was not pure to begin with,] let see what you say......... http://img69.imagesh...operationj.jpg/ Shocked ????????????????????????????????Respected readers enjoying the Hypocrisy of yours.....Pointing to us??? Folding hand is in yours source as well but as i said you dont know even yours own Majoosi cult...............................enjoy it a scan copy.................... http://files.shiacul...khisal-p414.JPG Ameen you have called yours own sources utter lies and garbage,,,,,,,,,,,,which i agree they are.......................Let see what you has to say now??????? Our Narrartors of Hadees are the people priased by Allah in Quran and by His Messnger(pbuh) as well..They are not tim,cherry XYZ as you said...know it Ali(r.a) has narrated over 500 Hadees so you laballed him Tim xyz too????????????????????????????Mazallah You know yours 95% Hadees are narrated by imam Jafar(r.a) and Bakar(r.a),who hasnt met Ali.Hassan,Hussain(may Allah be pleased with them all) leave aside Prophet(pbuh)......and the sub narrators of the Imams are cursed by Imam himself....Zararah,abu basir xyz are cursed by Imams publically becasue they put lies upon these poius progeny of Prophet(pbuh). Had you read Quran you wouldnt have said that our Namaz or Wadu is not according to Shairah.....................Its yourssssssssssssssssssssss who goes agiant the unnah of Rasool Allah(pbuh). My parents taught me who to behave others Allahumdallah,but when it comes to Disbelievers, "Muhammad is a Messenger of ALLAH, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers and merciful among themselves,...........( 48 : 29 ) Al-Quran. Then i act on as i have been ordered by Allah Almighty. Let the respected readers decide who is who and what is what...............................remember truth always previal. I will advise you agian that go and get some knowledge................................................ Wasalam for now too.

#17 Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 18 July 2010 - 12:58 AM

@ Ya Rasool Allah(pbuh).. You said....(Brother I am a shia myself and alhamdulillah quite firm on my beliefs....i hope inshallah it would be nice to learn from this thread...) One of the leading Scholar of the last century has rightly said that always deviant and innovators person or group always feel proud on his innovations and deviant creed,you are the best example of it and how rightly he has said.................................. Allah condemns those who become Shias for the followers of Hazrat Mohammad(pbuh).... The word Shia, Shiah, Shiite, or Shi‘ah was used many times in the Holy Quran. It means sect or band but it mostly has a negative meaning. Let's see: (6:159) "As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects (Shiites), you have no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did." (6:159) In this verse, God warns us not to divide ourselves into Shiites and declare people who do so as people who don't belong to the prophet Muhammad (p). (6:65) "Say: "He has power to send calamities on you, from above and below, or to cover you with confusion in party strife (make you Shiites), giving you a taste of mutual vengeance - each from the other." See how We explain the Signs by various (symbols); that they may understand." (6:65) In this verse, God warns us that he can let us become Shiites as a great punishment to us. (30:31-32) "Turn you in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not you among those who join gods with Allah, those who splite up their religion, and become (mere) Sects (Shiites), each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!" (30:31-32) In this verse, God associates the word Shiites with polytheist pagans who join gods with Allah! (Qur'an Mariam:69) "Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect (Shiites) all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against (Allah)

Most Gracious." (Qur'an Mariam:69) In this verse, God associates the word Shiites with those who are worst in obstinate rebellion against Him. (28:4) "Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections (Shiites), depressing a small group among them: their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females: for he was indeed a maker of mischief." (28:4) As far as Pharaoh is concerned, he proclaimed himself to be god. He divided his people into groups and parties so that he will be able to rule them easily. Each group is called Shi'ah.

#18 Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 18 July 2010 - 01:03 AM

Learn more from yours 1st Imam.................... In the Nahjul Balagha, Ali (r.a) said to his Shias in Sermon 126: “With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.” (Source: Al-Islam.org, http://www.al-islam....nahjul/126.htm) And we all know that people at that time were divided into three groups: 1. Ahlu-Sunnah wal Jama'a (Sunnis): Those were the majority who loved Imam Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) on the middle course. 2. The Shia: The ones who loved him too much till they were deviated from the Straight Path. 3. The Khawarij: Those who hated him till they were deviated from the Straight Path. So Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) proved the perishability of the Shia and Kharijites and called for joining Ahlul-Sunnah. What other speech will they ever believe???!!!

#19 ya rasulallah (s.a.w)

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Posted 18 July 2010 - 03:05 AM

Quote

. You said....(Brother I am a shia myself and alhamdulillah quite firm on my beliefs....i hope inshallah it would be nice to learn from this thread...) One of the leading Scholar of the last century has rightly said that always deviant and innovators person or group always feel proud on his innovations and deviant creed,you are the best example of it and how rightly he has said.................................. Allah condemns those who become Shias for the followers of Hazrat Mohammad(pbuh).... The word Shia, Shiah, Shiite, or Shi‘ah was used many times in the Holy Quran. It means sect or band but it mostly has a negative meaning. Let's see: (6:159) "As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects (Shiites), you have no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did." (6:159) In this verse, God warns us not to divide ourselves into Shiites and declare people who do so as people who don't belong to the prophet Muhammad (p). (6:65) "Say: "He has power to send calamities on you, from above and below, or to cover you with confusion in party strife (make you Shiites), giving you a taste of mutual vengeance - each from the other." See how We explain the Signs by various (symbols); that they may understand." (6:65) In this verse, God warns us that he can let us become Shiites as a great punishment to us. (30:31-32) "Turn you in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not you among those who join gods with Allah, those who splite up their religion, and become (mere) Sects (Shiites), each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!" (30:31-32) In this verse, God associates the word Shiites with polytheist pagans who join gods with Allah! (Qur'an Mariam:69) "Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect (Shiites) all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against Most Gracious." (Qur'an Mariam:69) In this verse, God associates the word Shiites with those who are worst in obstinate rebellion against Him. (28:4) "Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections (Shiites), depressing a small group among them: their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females: for he was indeed a maker of mischief." (28:4) As far as Pharaoh is concerned, he proclaimed himself to be god. He divided his people into groups and parties so that he will be able to rule them easily. Each group is called Shi'ah.

wasting your and my time as well..: http://www.answering...al/en/chap2.php

Quote

In the Nahjul Balagha, Ali (r.a) said to his Shias in Sermon 126: “With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.” (Source: Al-Islam.org, http://www.al-islam....nahjul/126.htm) And we all know that people at that time were divided into three groups: 1. Ahlu-Sunnah wal Jama'a (Sunnis): Those were the majority who loved Imam Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) on the middle course. 2. The Shia: The ones who loved him too much till they were deviated from the Straight Path. 3. The Khawarij: Those who hated him till they were deviated from the Straight Path. So Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) proved the perishability of the Shia and Kharijites and called for joining Ahlul-Sunnah. What other speech will they ever believe???!!!

http://www.[not allowed].com/forum/index.php?/topic/234976699-nahjulbalgha-sermon-127/these are links from s h i a c h a t.com

#20 Ali Shah Hussain

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Posted 18 July 2010 - 04:05 AM

wow what a credable site you reffered me to.............................google lies of answering-ansar.......................you wont read it or quote something from it in future....give good bye kiss to AA liers..........................another trustwrothy site you might get some truth from is www.ahlelbayt.com Secondly about sermon you are reffering me to shiachit.com which is matter of fact shitchat.com.................................................. These school and college guys interpreting Sermons of Ali(r.a).........joke Rather i will give you list of yours Scholars who admit it that be with great majority mean in sermon Ahlle Sunnah..................i will post them to you Sarah Nahjul balagha.....