38 replies to this topic

[Abdaal]

hadeed, on 18 July 2011 - 01:34 AM, said:

Thinking straight is not the quality that most people enjoy, so dont worry if you dont have it.

and its better not to go to the useless debate of translation as you are again and again opposing Quran by saying its destiny of Allah, or the voluntary decision of fleeing was a destiny or something like that. where Allah has been forgiving those who fleed in ohud of those fleeing, if all is destiny then what is the point of day of judgement. so in that way you are opposing quran. read sura imran and you will know it.

also you put the hadith Qudsi, where it is opposing Quran as i said in sura fatah....and then there are many instances further.

so very briefly can i ask whom should i believe, you the net swindler or this salafi  scholar, M. Muhsin Khan, whose translation i referred to earlier.


He also translated whole Quran, The noble Quran,  with an Arab, Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali.


here is his biography , http://en.wikipedia....mad_Muhsin_Khan.

so to sum up this useless wastage of time with you, what i can suggest for you , Any way its good for you to approach University of Southern California and u can suggest them that you are better translator than Muhsin Khan  (as you also translate according to the hidden meaning that is not very obvious most often to most of the people including Muhsin khan) and you have your own bukhari translation.

cheers, no hard feeling.

Your are not even addressing the event in detail. Read the verse of the Quran, which is in reference to this war.

[Shakir 9:25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating. (Online Quran)

From the above verse  I will post the 12r exegesis.
The 12rs claim "Ali ibn abi Talib, Abbas ibn Abd al Muttalib, Abu Sufyan ibn Harith and Abdullah ibn Masud were the only four persons who stayed with the Holy Prophet. Some say there were ten persons who did not run away. Ali stood in front of the Holy Prophet and stopped every attack made by the enemy to slay him."

http://quran.al-islam.org/

So in their view only 4-10 people assisted  RasoolAllah (sawas)
According to the 12rs the Shia among the sahaba were than 4-10. In the tradition below an evolved definition of the Shia among the sahaba is developed.

وَالْوَلايَةُ لامِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالَّذِينَ مَضَوْا عَلَى مِنْهَاجِ نَبِيِّهِمْ‏ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَلَمْ يُغَيِّرُوا وَلَمْ يُبَدِّلُوا مِثْلِ سَلْمَانَ الْفَارِسِيِّ وَأَبِي ذَرٍّ الْغِفَارِيِّ وَالْمِقْدَادِ بْنِ الأَسْوَدِ وَعَمَّارِ بْنِ يَاسِرٍ وَحُذَيْفَةَ بْنِ الَْيمَانِ وَأَبِي الْهَيْثَمِ بْنِ التَّيِّهَانِ وَسَهْلِ بْنِ حُنَيْفٍ وَعِبَادَةِ بْنِ الصَّامِتِ وَأَبِي أَيُّوبَ الأَنْصَارِيِّ وَخُزَيْمَةَ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ ذِي الشَّهَادَتَيْن ِ وَأَبِي سَعِيد الْخُدْرِيِّ وَأَمْثَالِهِمْ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَالْوَلايَةُ لاتْبَاعِهِمْ وَأَشْيَاعِهِمْ وَالْمُهْتَدِين َ بِهُدَاهُمْ السَّالِكِينَ مِنْهَاجَهُمْ رِضْوَانُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ

Imaam al-Ridhaa said: And the friendship with the Commander of the Faithful (s) and with those who followed the way of their Prophet (s), and who did not change their way such as Salman al-Farsi, Abu Tharr al-Ghifari, al-Miqdad ibn al-Aswad, Ammar bin Yasir, Hothayfa al-Yamani, Abil Haytham ibn al-Tayyihan, Sahl ibn Honayf, Ubada ibn As-Samit, Abi Ayyoub Al-Ansari, Khozayma ibn Thabit Thull-Shahadatayn, Abi Sa’eed al-Khodri and the like - may God be pleased with and have Mercy upon them - is obligatory. And the friendship with their followers who have been guided along their path - may God be pleased with them - is obligatory

From the above tradition the number of people exceeds 4-10. Does this mean the shia among ran way ? If we stick with first tradition which says 4 people assisted the Prophet (sawas), does this mean Salman Farsi (ra), Abu Dharr (ra), Miqdad (ra) and Ammar Yassir (ra) ran away ? If we stick   other numbers does this mean the other shia among the sahaba ran away ?


Since, Aql is major component in your sect, I will use show you  how it can use it expose the contradictions in your aqeeda.

Why are 12rs so obsessed by accusing the Sahaba of running away ? The answer is simple. They believe  Imam Ali (as) pointed this out in Najh Al Balagha in a letter exchange between himself and Muawaiyah.

While it was the practice of the Holy Prophet (s) that whenever a battle was raged and his companions behaved cowardly or ran away from the battlefield (as in Badr, Uhud and Hunayn) which was usually the case or started making the Muslims nervous (as in Khandaq), he sent members of his family (Bani Hashim) to fight out the battle to protect his companions. (Nahjul Balaagha - Letter 9)


Yet in the Sunni version of this letter which is presented in in the Ansab of al-Baladhuri and the Wa'qat Siffin by al-Minqari, Imam Ali (as) doesn't mention the sahaba running away.

With this in mind if the wars against the Ummavis and Kuffar, only needed a few people for its victory, why did Imam Ali (as) have to do taqiyyah against people who he supposedly claim were cowards in Saqifa ? Why did Imam Ali (as) have to back down in the arbitration after Siffin ? Why did Imam Hassan (as) have to make peace with Muawiyah, if only 4-10 are required to win a war. What happened in Karbala when 72 people were present which exceed the number 8-10, yet in the end Imam Hussain (as) was martyred. In your sect Imam Ali (as) couldn't even protect his wife from those people who you claim always ran away.
Its as if Imam Ali (as) shows Muawiyah that his supporters are not loyal, and then Muawiyah uses it against him and becomes the King.
Please answer this questions and concerns I have about your aqeeda.

Also what is ironic is the Sahabi who narrated the ahadith about Hunain and ran way, later fought under Imam Ali (as) in Siffin.

[Hani]

hadeed, on 18 July 2011 - 01:34 AM, said:

Thinking straight is not the quality that most people enjoy, so dont worry if you dont have it.

and its better not to go to the useless debate of translation as you are again and again opposing Quran by saying its destiny of Allah, or the voluntary decision of fleeing was a destiny or something like that. where Allah has been forgiving those who fleed in ohud of those fleeing, if all is destiny then what is the point of day of judgement. so in that way you are opposing quran. read sura imran and you will know it.

also you put the hadith Qudsi, where it is opposing Quran as i said in sura fatah....and then there are many instances further.

so very briefly can i ask whom should i believe, you the net swindler or this salafi  scholar, M. Muhsin Khan, whose translation i referred to earlier.


He also translated whole Quran, The noble Quran,  with an Arab, Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali.

here is his biography , http://en.wikipedia....mad_Muhsin_Khan.

so to sum up this useless wastage of time with you, what i can suggest for you , Any way its good for you to approach University of Southern California and u can suggest them that you are better translator than Muhsin Khan  (as you also translate according to the hidden meaning that is not very obvious most often to most of the people including Muhsin khan) and you have your own bukhari translation.

cheers, no hard feeling.

That's your reply?

All of you bear Witness that the twelver boy "Hadeed" is incapable of Debate and that he lost and ran away with his tale between his legs after we stepped on him and his religion.

And if you can't debate then I suggest you get Muhsin Khan to debate for you at least he understands Arabic. Another Victory for Ahlul-Sunnah.

Edited by TripolySunni, 18 July 2011 - 07:32 AM.

[Hani]

Let me show you the stupidity of this shia, here we have different translations of the same Quranic verse 128 from aal-'Imran to see how the different translators translate the word "Amr" "الأمر":

ليس لك من الأمر شيء أو يتوب عليهم أو يعذبهم فإنهم ظالمون

Hilali & Khan:
Not for you (O Muhammad SAW, but for Allah) is the decision; whether He turns in mercy to (pardons) them or punishes them; verily, they are the Zalimun (polytheists, disobedients, and wrong-doers, etc.). (128)

Qaribullah & Darwish:
No part of the matter is yours whether He turns towards them or punishes them. They are harmdoers. (128)

Pickthall:
It is no concern at all of thee (Muhammad) whether He relent toward them or punish them; for they are evil-doers. (128)

Daryabadi:
Not with thee is aught of the affair: He shall either relent toward them or torment them, for verily they are wrong-doers. (128)

According to the Idiot "Hadeed" all of these must be ignorant because each of them translated the word "Amr" differently.

Now the words "Amr Allah" are also found in the Quran and let me show you how they did  not translate it as "order of Allah", open Surat al-Tawbah verse 48:

لقد ابتغوا الفتنة من قبل وقلبوا لك الأمور حتى جاء الحق وظهر أمر اللـه وهم كارهون

Now let me show you how some of them translate it:

Hilali & Khan:
Verily, they had plotted sedition before, and had upset matters for you, - until the truth (victory) came and the Decree of Allah (His Religion, Islam) became manifest though they hated it. (48)

Pickthall:
Aforetime they sought to cause sedition and raised difficulties for thee till the Truth came and the decree of Allah was made manifest, though they were loth. (48)



Maududi:
Surely they sought even earlier to stir up sedition, and turned things upside down to frustrate you until the Truth came and the decree of Allah appeared, however hateful this may have been to them. (48)

Asad:
Indeed, even before this time have they tried to stir up discord and devised all manner of plots against thee, [O Prophet,] until the truth was revealed and God's will became manifest, however hateful this may have been to them. (48)

Ahmad Ali:
They had tried to create disorder before and intrigued against you, but truth came out in the end and God's will prevailed, even though they did not like it. (48)

Also Surat Hud verse 73, read how they translate "Amr Allah":

قالوا أتعجبين من أمر اللـه رحمت اللـه وبركاته عليكم أهل البيت إنه حميد مجيد

Hilali & Khan:
They said: "Do you wonder at the Decree of Allah? The Mercy of Allah and His Blessings be on you, O the family [of Ibrahim (Abraham)]. Surely, He (Allah) is All-Praiseworthy, All-Glorious." (73)

Maududi:
They said: 'Do you wonder at Allah's decree? Allah's mercy and His blessings be upon you, O people of the house. Surely, He is Praiseworthy, Glorious.' (73)

International:
They said, "Are you amazed at the decree of Allah? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house. Indeed, He is Praiseworthy and Honorable." (73)

Daryabadi:
They said marvellest thou at the decree of Allah? Mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house, verily He is Praiseworthy, Glorious. (73)

Asad:
Answered [the messengers]: "Dost thou deem it strange that God should decree what He wills? The grace of God and His blessings be upon you, O people of this house! Verily, ever to be praised, sublime is He!" (73)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I repeat myself AGAIN, When 'Umar (ra) says "Hatha Amr Allah" this means that this is what Allah willed and this is what he decreed for us and this is what he decided as our destiny... It does not mean "Allah ordered us to retreat" or "it's ok because Allah permitted us to escape" this understanding can only originate from a person who cannot think straight and as you said this isn't a quality that everyone enjoys especially the ignorants such as yourself.

Edited by TripolySunni, 18 July 2011 - 08:12 AM.

[hadeed]

TripolySunni, on 18 July 2011 - 08:12 AM, said:

Let me show you the stupidity of this shia, here we have different translations of the same Quranic verse 128 from aal-'Imran to see how the different translators translate the word "Amr" "الأمر":

ليس لك من الأمر شيء أو يتوب عليهم أو يعذبهم فإنهم ظالمون

Hilali & Khan:
Not for you (O Muhammad SAW, but for Allah) is the decision; whether He turns in mercy to (pardons) them or punishes them; verily, they are the Zalimun (polytheists, disobedients, and wrong-doers, etc.). (128)

Qaribullah & Darwish:
No part of the matter is yours whether He turns towards them or punishes them. They are harmdoers. (128)

Pickthall:
It is no concern at all of thee (Muhammad) whether He relent toward them or punish them; for they are evil-doers. (128)

Daryabadi:
Not with thee is aught of the affair: He shall either relent toward them or torment them, for verily they are wrong-doers. (128)

According to the Idiot "Hadeed" all of these must be ignorant because each of them translated the word "Amr" differently.

Now the words "Amr Allah" are also found in the Quran and let me show you how they did  not translate it as "order of Allah", open Surat al-Tawbah verse 48:

لقد ابتغوا الفتنة من قبل وقلبوا لك الأمور حتى جاء الحق وظهر أمر اللـه وهم كارهون

Now let me show you how some of them translate it:

Hilali & Khan:
Verily, they had plotted sedition before, and had upset matters for you, - until the truth (victory) came and the Decree of Allah (His Religion, Islam) became manifest though they hated it. (48)

Pickthall:
Aforetime they sought to cause sedition and raised difficulties for thee till the Truth came and the decree of Allah was made manifest, though they were loth. (48)



Maududi:
Surely they sought even earlier to stir up sedition, and turned things upside down to frustrate you until the Truth came and the decree of Allah appeared, however hateful this may have been to them. (48)

Asad:
Indeed, even before this time have they tried to stir up discord and devised all manner of plots against thee, [O Prophet,] until the truth was revealed and God's will became manifest, however hateful this may have been to them. (48)

Ahmad Ali:
They had tried to create disorder before and intrigued against you, but truth came out in the end and God's will prevailed, even though they did not like it. (48)

Also Surat Hud verse 73, read how they translate "Amr Allah":

قالوا أتعجبين من أمر اللـه رحمت اللـه وبركاته عليكم أهل البيت إنه حميد مجيد

Hilali & Khan:
They said: "Do you wonder at the Decree of Allah? The Mercy of Allah and His Blessings be on you, O the family [of Ibrahim (Abraham)]. Surely, He (Allah) is All-Praiseworthy, All-Glorious." (73)

Maududi:
They said: 'Do you wonder at Allah's decree? Allah's mercy and His blessings be upon you, O people of the house. Surely, He is Praiseworthy, Glorious.' (73)

International:
They said, "Are you amazed at the decree of Allah? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house. Indeed, He is Praiseworthy and Honorable." (73)

Daryabadi:
They said marvellest thou at the decree of Allah? Mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house, verily He is Praiseworthy, Glorious. (73)

Asad:
Answered [the messengers]: "Dost thou deem it strange that God should decree what He wills? The grace of God and His blessings be upon you, O people of this house! Verily, ever to be praised, sublime is He!" (73)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I repeat myself AGAIN, When 'Umar (ra) says "Hatha Amr Allah" this means that this is what Allah willed and this is what he decreed for us and this is what he decided as our destiny... It does not mean "Allah ordered us to retreat" or "it's ok because Allah permitted us to escape" this understanding can only originate from a person who cannot think straight and as you said this isn't a quality that everyone enjoys especially the ignorants such as yourself.

looking at your earlier  posts, i laugh a lot. you are so good for enjoyment... any way i dont have much time left for your childlike responses as weekend is over. but any way i enjoyed a lot

And i understand now, that may be your arabic is right but your english is not so good. so i advice you that you also start taking some english lessons? and i understand thats normal, because most arabs dont have good english.

so let me summarise here;

Yes Allah will, Allah decree and Allah order is one of the same thing. but this does not mean it was in the destiny of muslims to run thats why they fleed? ....that is too silly to even think that. and that''s why i say you contradict quran, and thats why i suggested you earlier to carefully read sura al imran.

so here in Sura Al imran, Allah is chastising the believers in Ohud when they ran on the hill leaving the Rasullalah saw behind.

[Yusufali 3:153]Behold! ye were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at any one, and the Messenger in your rear was calling you back.


Fleeing from Battle field was a "voluntary decision", and there was no destiny thing here, infact in Quran Allah swt chastised the believers who ran away ,  and it was the act of Shaitan, who caused them to slip away from battle field.

Now i only asked you one simple and straight thing , that even if you say omar ( (whether standing or fleeing among the group of fleeing people) , why he validated the actions of those who were fleeing from the battle field by calling hatha Ammar Allah?

How did he know that Allah has decreed for believers the act of fleeing?  what omar did he only justified the actions of those fleeing rather than criticizing them.


Did not the omar know this verse of Noble Quran?

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَلَّوْا مِنْكُمْ يَوْمَ الْتَقَى الْجَمْعَانِ إِنَّمَا اسْتَزَلَّهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ

(As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met, only the Shaitan sought to cause them to make a slip.

Thats enough for me on this thread for now.

Have a good one. see u at next weekend.

[Hani]

hadeed, on 18 July 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

looking at your earlier  posts, i laugh a lot. you are so good for enjoyment... any way i dont have much time left for your childlike responses as weekend is over. but any way i enjoyed a lot

And i understand now, that may be your arabic is right but your english is not so good. so i advice you that you also start taking some english lessons? and i understand thats normal, because most arabs dont have good english.

so let me summarise here;

Yes Allah will, Allah decree and Allah order is one of the same thing. but this does not mean it was in the destiny of muslims to run thats why they fleed? ....that is too silly to even think that. and that''s why i say you contradict quran, and thats why i suggested you earlier to carefully read sura al imran.

so here in Sura Al imran, Allah is chastising the believers in Ohud when they ran on the hill leaving the Rasullalah saw behind.

[Yusufali 3:153] Behold! ye were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at any one, and the Messenger in your rear was calling you back.


Fleeing from Battle field was a "voluntary decision", and there was no destiny thing here, infact in Quran Allah swt chastised the believers who ran away ,  and it was the act of Shaitan, who caused them to slip away from battle field.

Now i only asked you one simple and straight thing , that even if you say omar ( (whether standing or fleeing among the group of fleeing people) , why he validated the actions of those who were fleeing from the battle field by calling hatha Ammar Allah?

How did he know that Allah has decreed for believers the act of fleeing?  what omar did he only justified the actions of those fleeing rather than criticizing them.


Did not the omar know this verse of Noble Quran?

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَلَّوْا مِنْكُمْ يَوْمَ الْتَقَى الْجَمْعَانِ إِنَّمَا اسْتَزَلَّهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ

(As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met, only the Shaitan sought to cause them to make a slip.

Thats enough for me on this thread for now.

Have a good one. see u at next weekend.

yea am sure ur totally enjoying this since you couldn't prove anything until now, you FAILED to prove that he ran and when you failed you moved on to the next straw and kept holding on to it until you FAILED to prove the meaning of "Hatha Amru-llah", I explained but still you choose to be a mule so let me explain again:

Abu Qatada (ra) saw the Muslims being defeated in battle so he asked 'Umar (ra) "What's Going on!?" and 'Umar (ra) replied "This is the decree of Allah", meaning this is what Allah decided for us, as winning and losing are in his hands.

I can't believe you're this stupid honestly the Arabic is so clear this is why no Arab shia will use an argument as lame as yours, everyone will laugh at him... add the fact that 'Ali (ra) was amongst the Muslims so everything you're quoting applies to him unless you can prove otherwise with a Sahih Hadith.

So next weekend or next month or next year no matter how much sarcasm and no matter how many smiley faces you put You'll Never be able to prove that:

1-'Umar (ra) ran away.

2-'Umar (ra) said it was permissible to run away.

Edited by Efendi, 18 July 2011 - 02:36 PM.

[Efendi]

WARNING: TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY. NO ABUSES OR NAME CALLING.

[Hani]

hadeed, on 18 July 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

so let me summarise here;

Yes Allah will, Allah decree and Allah order is one of the same thing. but this does not mean it was in the destiny of muslims to run thats why they fleed? ....that is too silly to even think that. and that''s why i say you contradict quran, and thats why i suggested you earlier to carefully read sura al imran.

so here in Sura Al imran, Allah is chastising the believers in Ohud when they ran on the hill leaving the Rasullalah saw behind.

[Yusufali 3:153] Behold! ye were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at any one, and the Messenger in your rear was calling you back.


Fleeing from Battle field was a "voluntary decision", and there was no destiny thing here, infact in Quran Allah swt chastised the believers who ran away ,  and it was the act of Shaitan, who caused them to slip away from battle field.

1-Do you even believe in Destiny? Do you believe in the good and the bad of destiny? you seem to be clueless about destiny so I advise you to revise your corrupt 'Aqeedah. EVERYTHING that happens is a part of destiny, you can't say "there's no destiny here" that's illogical and I don't understand how you invented this.

2- As for verse [3:153] that you quoted this only shows your complete ignorance because it's talking about the Battle of Uhud not the battle of Hunayn.

[swords_of_sunnah]

Jazakah Allah khairan brother Tripolysunni, actually its very irritating to debate with senseless shias and i have experienced that that too from sub continents ....lol

And this was the decesive point acc to me:

Quote

The Sahih Hadith in Ahmad CLEARLY proves this for those of intellect "في من ثبت معه أبو بكر وعمر ، عليهما السلام" it says "From amongst those who stood their ground and remained are Abu Bakr and 'Umar peace be upon them..."
In no  version of this Hadith does it ever mention 'Umar (ra) running away,  That is your own retarded understanding, and trust me you Shias are  complete retards when it comes to understanding anything even remotely  related to Hadith...maybe because you're a bunch of savage ignorants.

Anyway I  really hope you're satisfied with the reply, my OP was more than enough  but I guess we have to be patient with you monkeys so thank Allah for  giving me the patience to reply to a Twelver boy such as urself.

اللهم إلعن أعداء محمد و أله و صحبه

Btw if im not wrong this puppet is the same who raised his head in the same topic and tried to accuse Umar(ra), but evetually it turned out to be his lies by distortions of sunni texts and out of shame he ran away , thats why he is registered with another nick, If i get time i will try to search that topic....

p.s please pardon me , coz im very busy these days due to my bros marriage

[swords_of_sunnah]

Here it is:
http://islamic-forum...pic=11974&st=40

[Hani]

swords_of_sunnah, on 18 July 2011 - 06:19 PM, said:

p.s please pardon me , coz im very busy these days due to my bros marriage

Mashallah your brother is getting married, trust me I know what you're going through, my bro got married last month and I was busy the whole week!

The good news is, after I wiped the floor with him here I am gonna open another thread about the battle of Uhud and do the same there if time permits.

Edited by TripolySunni, 18 July 2011 - 07:20 PM.

[Hani]

hadeed, on 18 July 2011 - 01:34 AM, said:

also you put the hadith Qudsi, where it is opposing Quran as i said in sura fatah....and then there are many instances further.

Are you saying that the Hadith al-Qudsi in which the prophet SAWS said that Allah (swt) said: "NONE OF THOSE WHO OFFERED THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE UNDER THE TREE SHALL ENTER HELL"

Are you saying that it Contradicts with this verse you quoted from Surat al-Fath?
Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you, [O Muhammad] - they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. So he who breaks his word only breaks it to the detriment of himself. And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward. (48:10)


The Hadith in no way contradicts the verse, the verse praises those who gave the pledge of allegiance under the tree but it also warns them from the consequences of betraying Allah and his Prophet SAWS, if you read the Quran you'll be familiar with its method because it always talks about the rewards and then it sends a warning.

As for the Hadith it is a prophecy and it gives the believers who offered the pledge glad tidings that none of them will enter Hellfire as Allah knows what is in their hearts from sincere Iman and he knows their destinies before they even fulfil them.

اللهم صل على سيدنا محمد و على آله و صحبه و إلعن أعدائهم

[deeds]

hadeed, on 17 July 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:

besides you go on contradicting Quran on the basis of hadith. Sanad is nothing against the wording of Quran. (Can u show the wordings of hadith in Quran???)

where as Quran mentioned opposite, as i mentioned the verse of Quran in the same sura fatah that whoever will break the bayt rizwan will harm its own soul.

hello hadeed

do you follow one sentence in every page of the Quran? or one verse every chapter? or nothing?


i know you ran off but every shia runs off when you get to this critical stage of Quran wording.
if you are not one of those who war with Allah SWT and his Messenger SAW by doing jihad (weekend only in your case) against the Quran, then come back and explain how your aqeedah doesnt contradict the Quran

the least you can do is discuss this genuiunely, in full. put your trust in the words of Allah SWT before you yourself jump into following contradictory hadiths

[Ahlusunnah]

Assalamualaikum,

I have a question related to this topic

Who actually said 'this is a decree by Allah', it is Umar or Abu Qatadah?

In Sahih al-Bukhari mention Umar said it

And Al-Laith said: Yahya bin Sa'eed narrated to us from Umar Bin Kathir Bin Af'lah from Abu Muhammad slave of Abu Qatada that Abu Qatada said:

When it was the day of (the battle of) Hunain, I saw a Muslim man fighting with one of the pagans and another pagan was hiding himself behind the Muslim in order to kill him. So I hurried towards the pagan who was hiding behind the Muslim to kill him, and he raised his hand to hit me but I hit his hand and cut it off. That man got hold of me and pressed me so hard that I was afraid (that I would die), then he knelt down and his grip became loose and I pushed him and killed him. The Muslims were defeated and I was defeated with them, sudddenly I met Umar bin Al-Khattab amongst the people and I asked him, "What is wrong with the people?" He said, "It is the decree of Allah"




But in Sahih Muslim mention Abu Qatadah said it

- (1751) - وحدثنا أبو الطاهر وحرملة (واللفظ له). أخبرنا عبدالله بن وهب. قال: سمعت مالك بن أنس يقول: حدثني يحيى بن سعيد عن عمر بن كثير بن أفلح، عن أبي محمد مولى قتادة، عن أبي قتادة. قال:
خرجنا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عام حنين. فلما التقينا كانت للمسلمين جولة. قال: فرأيت رجلا من المشركين قد علا رجلا من المسلمين. فاستدرت إليه حتى أتيته من ورائه. فضربته على حبل عاتقه. وأقبل على فضمني ضمة وجدت منها ريح الموت. ثم أدركه الموت. فأرسلني. فلحقت عمر بن الخطاب فقال: ما للناس؟ فقلت: أمر الله.

Abu Al-Taher and Harmalath (and the saying goes to him). Andullah bin Wahab reported said: I heard Malik bin Anas saying: Yahaya bin Sa’eed narrated from Umar bin Kathir bin Aflah, from Abu Muhammad slave of Abu Qatada, from Abu Qatada said:

We accompanied the Messenger of Allah (my peace be upon him) on an expedition in the year of the Battle of Hunain. When we encountered the enemy, (some of the Muslims turned back (in fear). I saw that a man from the polytheists overpowered one of the Muslims. I turned round and attacked him from behind giving a blow between his neck and shoulder. He turned towards me and grappled with me in such a way that I began to see death staring me in the face. Then death overtook him and left me alone. I joined 'Umar b. al-Khattab who was saying: What has happened to the people (that they are retreating)? I said: It is the Decree of Allah.

[Hani]

Ahlusunnah, on 13 September 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

Assalamualaikum,

I have a question related to this topic

Who actually said 'this is a decree by Allah', it is Umar or Abu Qatadah?

In Sahih al-Bukhari mention Umar said it

And Al-Laith said: Yahya bin Sa'eed narrated to us from Umar Bin Kathir Bin Af'lah from Abu Muhammad slave of Abu Qatada that Abu Qatada said:

When it was the day of (the battle of) Hunain, I saw a Muslim man fighting with one of the pagans and another pagan was hiding himself behind the Muslim in order to kill him. So I hurried towards the pagan who was hiding behind the Muslim to kill him, and he raised his hand to hit me but I hit his hand and cut it off. That man got hold of me and pressed me so hard that I was afraid (that I would die), then he knelt down and his grip became loose and I pushed him and killed him. The Muslims were defeated and I was defeated with them, sudddenly I met Umar bin Al-Khattab amongst the people and I asked him, "What is wrong with the people?" He said, "It is the decree of Allah"




But in Sahih Muslim mention Abu Qatadah said it

- (1751) - وحدثنا أبو الطاهر وحرملة (واللفظ له). أخبرنا عبدالله بن وهب. قال: سمعت مالك بن أنس يقول: حدثني يحيى بن سعيد عن عمر بن كثير بن أفلح، عن أبي محمد مولى قتادة، عن أبي قتادة. قال:
خرجنا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عام حنين. فلما التقينا كانت للمسلمين جولة. قال: فرأيت رجلا من المشركين قد علا رجلا من المسلمين. فاستدرت إليه حتى أتيته من ورائه. فضربته على حبل عاتقه. وأقبل على فضمني ضمة وجدت منها ريح الموت. ثم أدركه الموت. فأرسلني. فلحقت عمر بن الخطاب فقال: ما للناس؟ فقلت: أمر الله.

Abu Al-Taher and Harmalath (and the saying goes to him). Andullah bin Wahab reported said: I heard Malik bin Anas saying: Yahaya bin Sa’eed narrated from Umar bin Kathir bin Aflah, from Abu Muhammad slave of Abu Qatada, from Abu Qatada said:

We accompanied the Messenger of Allah (my peace be upon him) on an expedition in the year of the Battle of Hunain. When we encountered the enemy, (some of the Muslims turned back (in fear). I saw that a man from the polytheists overpowered one of the Muslims. I turned round and attacked him from behind giving a blow between his neck and shoulder. He turned towards me and grappled with me in such a way that I began to see death staring me in the face. Then death overtook him and left me alone. I joined 'Umar b. al-Khattab who was saying: What has happened to the people (that they are retreating)? I said: It is the Decree of Allah.

Most likely it was 'Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra) who said it, either way it doesn't really change the meaning of the Hadith.

[Ebn Hussein]

TripolySunni, on 15 July 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:

The reality of the matter is that 'Umar ibn al-Khattab and Abu Bakr (ra) and others from amongst the Mouhajirun and the Ansar have stood their ground and defended the prophet SAWS unlike what the lying Shi'ites claim!

We read the SAHIH Hadith in "Musnad Ahmad" volume 23 page 274 Hadith #14731:

حديث مرفوع حَدَّثَنَا يَعْقُوبُ , حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي , عَنِابْنِ إِسْحَاقَ , عَنْ عَاصِمِ بْنِ عُمَرَ بْنِ قَتَادَةَ , عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِبْنِ جَابِرٍ , عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ

فَانْطَلَقَ النَّاسُ إِلَّا أَنَّ مَعَ رَسُولِ اللهِ صَلَّىاللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ رَهْطًا مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ، وَأَهْلِ بَيْتِهِغَيْرَ كَثِيرٍ، ثَبَتَ مَعَهُ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ،وَمِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ، عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ، وَالْعَبَّاسُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ،وَابْنُهُ الْفَضْلُ بْنُ عَبَّاسٍ، وَأَبُو سُفْيَانَ بْنُ الْحَارِثِ، وَرَبِيعَةُبْنُ الْحَارِثِ، وَأَيْمَنُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ وَهُوَ ابْنُ أُمِّ أَيْمَنَ، وَأُسَامَةُبْنُ زَيْدٍ، قَالَ: وَرَجُلٌ مِنْ هَوَازِنَ عَلَى جَمَلٍ لَهُ أَحْمَرَ فِي يَدِهِرَايَةٌ لَهُ سَوْدَاءُ فِي رَأْسِ رُمْحٍ طَوِيلٍ لَهُ أَمَامَ النَّاسِ، وَهَوَازِنُخَلْفَهُ

Ya'qoub narrated from his Father from Ibn Ishaq from 'Assim ibn 'Umar bin Qatada from 'Abdul-Rahman ibn Jabir from Jabir ibn 'Abdullah:
The people retreated but the Prophet SAWS was accompanied by a group from the Mouhajirun and the Ansar and his Ahlul-Bayt, Those who held their ground and stayed with him were Abu Bakr an 'Umar and from his Ahlul-Bayt 'Ali ibn abi Talib and al-'Abbas bin 'Abdul-Mutallib and his son al-Fadl and Abu Suffiyan bin al-Harith and Raba'iyah bin al-Harith and Ayman bin 'Ubeid and he is ibn Umm-Ayman and Usamah ibn Zaid, he said: and a Man from Hawzan (until the end of the narration).

This is also mentioned in the book "Majma'a al-Zawaed" under "Kitab al-Maghazi wal Siyar" in the chapter "Ghazwat Hunein" Hadith # 10265:

Quote

وعن جابر بن عبد الله قال : لما استقبلنا وادي حنين قال : انحدرنا في واد من أودية تهامة أجوف حطوط إنما ننحدر فيه انحدارا ، قال : وفي عماية الصبح ، وقد كان القوم قد كمنوا لنا في شعابه ، وفي أجنابه ، ومضائقه ، قد أجمعوا وتهيئوا وأعدوا
قال : فوالله ما راعنا ونحن منحطون إلا الكتائب قد شدت علينا شدة رجل واحد ، وانهزم الناس راجعين فانشمروا لا يلوي أحد على أحد
وانحاز رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - ذات اليمين ، ثم قال : " إلي أيها الناس ، إلا أن مع رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - رهطا من المهاجرين والأنصار ، وأهل بيته غير كثير
وفي من ثبت معه أبو بكر وعمر ، عليهما السلام ، ومن أهل بيته علي بن أبي طالب ، والعباس بن عبد المطلب ، وابنه الفضل بن عباس ، وأبو سفيان بن الحارث ، وربيعة بن الحارث ، وأيمن بن عبيد وهو ابن أم أيمن ، وأسامة بن زيد ، عليهما السلام
قال : ورجل من هوازن على جمل له أحمر ، في يده راية له سوداء في رأس رمح له طويل أمام الناس وهوازن خلفه ، فإذا أدرك طعن برمحه ، فإذا فاته الناس رفع لمن وراءه فاتبعوه

Farid, on 02 August 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

...but returns, and stands by the Prophet (pbuh) against the Hawazin.

According to Jabir bin Abdullah Al-Ansari, when things got tough, many of those that were in the army of the Prophet (pbuh) fled except from some of the Muhajireen, Ansaar, and ahlul bayt, and among those that stood with him from the Muhajireen were Abu Bakr, Omar, and from his ahlul bayt Ali bin Abi Talib, Al-Abbas bin Abdulmutalib...

See Sirat Ibn Hisham (4/375) quoting Ibn Ishaaq through an authentic chain.

All AUTHENTIC sources Rafidah never show, just to divert of the shameful reality of their hidden saviour, the COWARD who is hiding due to FEAR!

Edited by Ebn Hussein, 02 August 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Dihyah_Kalbi]

Hani, on 15 July 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:

Now let us see who the true coward is from the books of the Shia and according to their biggest scholars.

al-Tusi in his book al-Ghaybah page 203, al-Murtada in his book al-Shafi volume 4 page 149 and al-Mufid in his book al-Fusoul al-Mukhtarah page 395:

Quote

لا سبب للغيبة ولا علة تمنعه من الظهور الا خوف الامام على نفسه من القتل

"The only reason behind the ghaybah(occultation) of the Mahdi and the reason that he cannot appear is that he fears that he will be killed."

i was banned on shitchat.com because of this, i said a leader is the one who should be leading but your leader hiding out of death fear(ummayad phobia), i just said what was is suppose to be thr in thier book. i was permanently banned without warning, i burst out into laughin cause i felt i kept feet on the the painful thing. this is true anyhow.

Allah Bless us all.

[Abdaal]

Why don't those 12ers come here and debate with us ?

By the way the ahadith are in al kafi as well.

H 892, Ch. 80, h 5
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from al-Hassan ibn Musa al-Khashshab from ‘Abdallah ibn
Musa from ‘Abdallah ibn Bukayr from Zurarah who has said the following. "The young boy
will disappear from the public sight before his rise (with divine power)" The narrator has said,
"I then asked, "Why (would that has to take place)?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He will be
afraid." He pointed out with his hand to his midsection. Then he said, "O zurara, "He is the
one whose reappearance is expected. He is the one whose coming to this world through birth
will be doubted. Certain people will say, "his father died without leaving any son behind."
Certain others will say, "Just before the dead of his father his mother conceived him." Still
others will say, "He was born two years before the death of his father." He is the one whose
reappearance is expected. The fact is that Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, loves
to try and test the Shi‘a (his followers). It in such a condition that people of falsehood will
raise doubts, O Zurara)."
The narrator has said, "I then said, May Allah take my soul in service for your cause, if will
be alive at the time of his rise with divine power what should I do?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "O
Zurara, if you will live up to such time then say the following prayer. "O Lord make me know
You for if you would not make me know You I will not know Your prophet. O Lord, make
me know Your Messenger, for if You would not make me know your Messenger I will not
know the one who possesses Your authority over the creatures. O Lord make me know the
one who possesses Your authority over the creatures for if You will not make me know him I
will stray away from my religion." Then he said, "O Zurara, it is necessary that a young boy
must be murdered in the city of Madina." I then said, "May Allah take my soul in service for
your cause, would he not be killed in the hands of the army of al-Sufyani?" He said, "No, but
the army of the tribe of so and so will kill him. They will come to inter Madina, thus, they
take hold of the young boy and kill him. When they will murder him in transgression,
animosity and injustice they will not then be given respite. At such time good news will be
expected, if Allah would so will."


H 896, Ch. 80, h 9
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ja'far ibn Muhammad from al-Hassan ibn
Mu‘awiya from ‘Abdallah ibn Jabala from ‘Abdallah ibn Bukayr from Zurara who has said
the following. "I heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say as herein below. "The person who will rise to
Divine power on earth will disappear from the public sight before he will do so." I then asked,
"Why, will happen so?" He said, "He will be afraid." He then pointed to his midsection
meaning thereby being murderd."


H 905, Ch. 80, h 18
Through the same chain of narrators it is narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from his
father, Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from ibn Bukayr from Zurara who has said the following. " AlQa’im
(the one who will rise with Divine Authority) will disappear before he will rise with
divine power. He will suffer fear. The Imam (a.s.) pointed to his midsection, meaning thereby
being murdered."


H 916, Ch. 80, h 29
Al-Husayn ibn Ahmad has narrated from from Ahmad ibn Hilal who has said that ‘Uthman
ibn ‘Isa narrated to us from Khalid ibn Najih from Zurara ibn A‘yan that abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.)
has said the following. "It will be necessary for the young boy to disappear from the public
sight." I then asked, "Why it will be necessary?" He said, "Because he will have fear- he then
pointed towards his midsection. He will be the one whose reappearance will be intensely
expected. It will be he in whose being born people will have doubts. Certain people will say,
"His mother has just conceived him." Others will say, "His father died but left no surviving
son." Certain others will say, "He was born two years before the death of his father." Zurara
has said, "I said to him, ‘What do you command me if will attain that time?" The Imam (a.s.)
said, "Pray to Allah in the following words. "O Lord, make me know You for if you would
not make me know You I will not know You. O Lord, make me know Your prophet, for if
You would not make me know your Messenger I will never know him. O Lord, make me
know the one who possesses Your authority over the creatures for if You will not make me
know him I will stray away from my religion." Ahmad ibn Hilal has said, "I had heard this
hadith fifty six years ago."

[Dihyah_Kalbi]

ohh mahdi please come out of the grave and take shias out of thier misery

oops i mean cave not grave, u know person hiding so many years gives me a feeling that he is dead

Edited by Dihyah_Kalbi, 07 August 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[New_Muslim]

Good read.