12 replies to this topic

[Farid]

Alsalam alaykum,

It is about time we tried to compile a list of evidences for this. I'm not sure if it has been done before. We all agree to this, and by putting our heads together, I'm sure we can sell the idea to some of those who are on the fence about this matter.

I'll start with the most obvious:

The main four books of Shia hadith were written at least a century after the main Sunni books. Due to this, we find hadiths attributed to the Imams that quote Sunni opinions then respond to them. On the other hand, we don't find this going the other way around. We don't find Sunni hadiths quoting the Imams and responding to their opinions.

I'm sure this will be fun once we get the ball rolling.

[Hani]

I suppose we can talk about their extremely late books of Rijal and how they never cared about authenticity until this very day their scholars in the Husseiniyah completely ignore the authenticity of the Hadith or even citing its source, how al-Najashi wrote his book of Rijal as a response to Ahlul-Sunnah...

( السبب في تأليف النجاشي لكتابه هو تعيير جماعة من المخالفين للشيعة بأنه لا سلف لهم ولا مصنف ) ، المصدر : دروس تمهيدية في القواعد الرجالية ص 86 .

Shia scholar Baqir al-Irwani says in "Al-Durous al-Tamhidiyyah fi al-Qawa'ed al-Rijaliyah" page 86: " The reason al-Najashi wrote his book is because a group of those who differ with us criticized us and said we have no predecessors and no books."

So basically if it weren't for this, the Shia today wouldn't have their most important Rijal book.

Edited by TripolySunni, 08 November 2011 - 07:28 PM.

[Farid]

This certainly died fast.

Any more contributions?

[kalaam]

Can any brother talk about the allegations of Shiites on the first three caliphs e.g fadak , saqifa etc in their earlier books and later books?

[Farid]

^ I'm sure, for a fact, that these existed early, because these were early hadiths that were available to all from the start.

However, what comes to mind are many hadiths in which the Imam is asked about hadiths from Sunni books. "O' Imam, how do we deal with hadiths of the 'aama that say X?" The Imam would give a thorough response in the form of an explanation, or a refutation. Of course, we don't find Sunni narrations in which we find anything similar, like a Sunni asking his shaikh about the understanding of Shias, or the Imams, or of Shia hadiths that ONLY exist in their books.

[Hani]

Farid, on 26 November 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

^ I'm sure, for a fact, that these existed early, because these were early hadiths that were available to all from the start.

However, what comes to mind are many hadiths in which the Imam is asked about hadiths from Sunni books. "O' Imam, how do we deal with hadiths of the 'aama that say X?" The Imam would give a thorough response in the form of an explanation, or a refutation. Of course, we don't find Sunni narrations in which we find anything similar, like a Sunni asking his shaikh about the understanding of Shias, or the Imams, or of Shia hadiths that ONLY exist in their books.

Akhi Farid, a good example is 'Ashuraa, the tenth of Muharram in which we have a Sunnah in our books that we fast in this blessed month and they used to fast 9th-10th or 10th-11th in specific, so what do the Shia do? they claim that everyone who fasts is celebrating the death of Husein (ra) and some even went as far as to accuse bani Umayyah of inventing this, ironically it turns out they have the same narrations about fasting the tenth from their own books so check out what they invented later just to differ with us on this day:

Quote

محمد بن الحسن في ( المصباح ) عن عبدالله بن سنان قال : دخلت على أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) يوم عاشوراء ودموعه تنحدر على عينيه كاللؤلؤ المتساقط ، فقلت : مم بكائك ؟ فقال : أفي غفلة أنت ؟ ! أما علمت أن الحسين ( عليه السلام ) اصيب في مثل هذا اليوم ؟ ! فقلت : ما قولك في صومه ؟ فقال لي : صمه من غير تببيت ، وأفطره من غير تشميت ، ولا تجعله يوم صوم كملا ، وليكن إفطارك بعد صلاة العصر بساعة على شربة من ماء ، فإنه في مثل ذلك الوقت من ذلك اليوم تجلت الهيجاء عن آل رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ) . . . الحديث

7 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan in al-Misbah from `Abdullah b. Sinan said: I entered upon Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام on the day of `Ashura [and I met him melancholic in color, sorrowful in appearance – in the masdar] and his tears were dropping upon his eyes like dripping pearls. So I said: What is your crying from? So he said: Are you in (a state of) heedlessness? Do you not know that al-Husayn عليه السلام was afflicted in the like of this day? So I said: What is your saying in regards to its fast? So he said to me: Fast it without tabyeet (?), and break it without tashmeet (rejoicing at an enemies misfortune?), and do not make it a complete day of fasting, and your iftar is to be after the salat of `asr by an hour upon a drink of water, for verily in the like of that time from that day did the battle appear from the family of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم [- to the rest of the hadith]



^ They invented a Hadith that they must fast for HALF THE DAY, now that's reactionary religion right there.

Edited by TripolySunni, 26 November 2011 - 07:24 PM.

[Farid]

^ Mmmm... Well, there ya go!


As you are aware, the Sunnis back then were completely oblivious on Imamism, while on the other hand, Imamis were perfectly aware of the Sunni point of view.

[al-kulayni]

Assalamu Aleykum,

Here is a new proof :



Al mufid is saying that it is a sunnah to fast the day of Mu'awiyah 's death.

[Hani]

Boy have I got some MAJOR reactionary stuff for you guys and this will make it crystal clear, in al-Kafi 5/34:

جاؤوا إلى أبي عبد الله رضي الله عنه ، فقالوا له: إنَّا قد نَبَزْنا [كذا] نَبْزاً أَثْقَلَ ظُهورَنا، وماتت له أفئدَتُنا، واستحلت له الوُلاةُ دماءَنا في حديث رواه لهم فقهاؤهم، فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: الرافضة؟ قالوا: نعم، فقال: لا والله ما هم سمّوكم.. ولكن الله سمّاكم به) الكافي 5/34.


Mohammed bin al-Hasan bin Ahmed bin al-Waleed related to us from Mohammed bin al-Hasan as-Saffar from Ebbad bin Sulaiman from Mohammed bin Sulaiman that his father Sulaiman ad-Dailami (of Daylam) said: I was with Abu Abdullah (a) when Abu Bassir, who was out of breath, came in. When he took his seat, Abu Abdullah (a) asked him: "O Abu Mohammed, what for was your breathlessness?" He answered: "May Allah make me your sacrifice, son of Allah's Messenger. I grew old, my bones grew thin, and time of my death is about to fall. Still, I do not know what I will face in my life to come."
Abu Abdullah (a) said: "O Abu Mohammed, is it you who says such a thing?"
He answered: "May Allah make me your sacrifice, why should I not say it?" The Imam (a) said: "O Abu Mohammed, have you not known that Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He, honors the youth among you and reverences the old ones?" He said: "May Allah make me your sacrifice, how does Allah honor the youth and reverence the old ones?" The Imam (a) said: "Allah will not punish the youth out of His honoring them and will not settle an account with the old men out of His reverencing them." He said: "May Allah make me your sacrifice. Is this peculiarity granted (to us) exclusively or is it general for the community of Tawhid -believing in Allah's oneness-?" The Imam said: "No, by Allah. It is peculiar for you, not the general (Muslims)." He said: "May Allah make me your sacrifice. We have been called with a name due to which our backs have been broken, our hearts have been dead, and the governors have deemed lawful to kill us-all for a narration that their scholars have related." The Imam (a) said: "Do you mean Rafidah?"
He answered: "Yes, I do." The Imam (a) said: "No, by Allah. It was not they who named you so. It was, in fact, Allah Who chose this name for you. O Abu Mohammed, have you not known that there were seventy men among the Israelites who rejected the Pharaoh and his people when their deviation had been proved to them? Accordingly, they joined Moses (a) when they knew his having been the right party. Because they rejected the Pharaoh, the party of Moses called them the Rafidah -the rejecters-. They were the best worshippers among the individuals of the party of Moses.

Edited by TripolySunni, 07 December 2011 - 06:33 PM.

[Jondab_Azdi]

^

حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رحمه الله قال حدثني محمد بن الحسن الصفار قال حدثني عباد بن سليمان عن محمد بن سليمان عن أبيه سليمان الديلمي


1) Sulayman al-Daylami : a liar and ghal.

2) His son, Muhammad b. Sulayman : daeef jiddan and a supporter of irtifa in madhab

3) Ibad b. Sulayman : majhool

w/s

[Hani]

^ No disagreement on the weakness of all of these, this is what the topic is about, the Shia invent narrations to refute their opponents and believe in them.

BTW these guys at "imamreza" also posted a similar story here:

Ammar al- Dihny:
Abu Mu'awiya Ammar b. Khabab al- Bajly al- Dihny al- Kufi, Dihn is a part from Bajila, was a reliable companion of al- Sadiq, peace be on him. His family was among the famous Shi'te families in Kufa then. It was said that his father was called Mu'awiya, too.
It was said to al- Sadiq, peace be on him: "Today, Ammar al- Dihny witnessed before b. Abu Layla(578) the judge of Kufa. The judge said to him: "Ammar, stand up. We know you. We do not accept your witness because you are apostate (rafidi). 'Ammar stood up while he was shaking all over and weeping. So, b. Abu Layla said to him: "You are a man, you are among the people of knowledge and tradition. If the word apostate, (rafidi) hurts you, then disown yourself of apostasy (rafd). Then you will be one of our brothers."
'Ammar said to him: "By Allah, I am not weeping over what you are saying. However, I am weeping over you and over my self. I am weeping over myself because you have attributed me to a noble rank of which I am not worthy. You have claimed that I am an apostate (rafidi).
Woe upon you! Al- Sadiq, peace be on him told me that pharaoh was the first to use the word 'rafida' (apostates) for those magicians who apostatized the religion of pharaoh and obeyed Moses' orders. Then the rafidi (apostate) is he who renounces what Allah hates and does what Allah orders. Is there such a person in our present time? I am weeping over myself because I am afraid that Allah may set a seal upon my heart while I had accept this noble name (i.e. rafidi) before.
LINK

Edited by TripolySunni, 07 December 2011 - 07:39 PM.

[swords_of_sunnah]

Doing the opposite of 'aama
   علل الشرائع للصدوق (381 هـ) الجزء2 صفحة531


Illal ul Sharai of Shaikh Sadooq (381 AH) Volume 2 Page 531

العلة التي من أجلها يجب الاخذ بخلاف ما تقوله العامة
Chapter on the reason due to which it is wajib (obligatory) to follow the opposite of what the 'aama (non shia ummah) state.

1  - حدثنا أبي رحمه الله قال: حدثنا أحمد بن ادريس عن أبي اسحاق  الارجاني  رفعه قال: قال أبو عبد الله (ع) أتدري لم امرتم بالاخذ بخلاف ما  تقول  العامة؟ فقلت: لا ندرى، فقال: ان عليا (ع) لم يكن يدين الله بدين الا  خالف  عليه الامة إلى غيره أرادة لابطال أمره وكانوا يسألون أمير المؤمنين  (ع)  عن الشئ الذي لا يعلمونه فإذا أفتاهم جعلوا له ضدا من عندهم ليلبسوا  على  الناس
1-  Told us my father(ra), who said: Told us Ahmad b. Idris from Abi Ishaq  al Arjani who lifted it (the sanad/chain by narrating in marf'oo  manner), he said: Imam Ja'far al Sadiq(as) said "Do you know why you  people have  been ordered to follow the opposite of what 'aama say? I  said "We do not know." (Imam ) said "Verily Ali   did not judge in religion of Allah(swt) but the ummah would  dissent on  it to other than it so as to topple his government and they(aama) would  ask  Amirul momineen(as) about the things which they did not know, so  when Ali (as) would give them his fatwa, they(aama) would impose to it  the opposite(fatwa) from themselves so as to cause confusion upon the  people."

2  - حدثنا جعفر بن علي عن علي بن عبد الله عن معاذ قال: قلت لابي عبد  الله  (ع) اني اجلس في المجلس فيأتيني الرجل فإذا عرفت انه يخالفكم اخبرته  بقول  غيركم، وان كان ممن يقول بقولكم فان كان ممن لا ادري اخبرته بقولكم  قول  غيركم فيختار لنفسه، قال: رحمك الله هكذا فاصنع

2-  Told us Ja'far b. Ali from Ali b. Abdullah from Mu'adh who said: I said  to abi Abdullah (as): "Indeed I sit in a gathering, then a man comes to  me so when I have known that he opposes you I tell him the saying of  others, and if he were one of whom profess by your statement, then if I  do not know of whom he were I tell him your saying and of others so he  may choose by himself." Imam (as) said: "So do like this, may Allah  (swt) bless you."



  3 - حدثنا أبي رحمه الله قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله عن عمرو بن أبي   المقدام عن علي بن الحسين عن أبي عبد الله (ع) قال: إذا كنتم في أئمة الجور   فامضوا في أحكامهم، ولا تشهروا أنفسكم فتقتلوا، وان تعاملتم باحكامهم كان   خيرا لكم

3-  Told us my father (ra), who said: Told us Sa'd b. Abdullah from Amru b.  abi al Muqdam from Ali b. al Hussain from abi Abdullah (as) who said:  "When you are among oppressive leaders then act by their orders, and do  not publicize yourselves so you kill yourselves, and if you carry out  their orders it would be better for you people."



  4 - حدثنا علي بن أحمد عن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله، عن علي بن اسباط قال  قلت  له - يعني الرضا (ع) - حدث الامر من أمري لا اجد بدا من معرفته، وليس  في  البلد الذي انا فيه احد استفته من مواليك، قال: فقال ايت فقيه البلد،  فإذا  كان ذلك فاستفيه في أمرك، فإذا افتاك بشئ فخذ بخلافه فان الحق فيه

4-  Told us Ali b. Ahmad from Ahmad b. abi Abdullah from Ali b. Asbat who  said: I said to him, i.e. al Redha (as): "An issue occurs among my  affair, I do not find a way out from knowing it and in the city which I  am in there is none from your adherents who can tell its fatwa." Imam  (as) said: "Come to the faqih (jurist) of the city then ask his fatwa on  your issue, so when he issues you his fatwa about a thing then follow  the opposite of it for verily the truth is in that."



الإحتجاج للشيخ الطبرسي الجزء2 صفحة109

Al Ihtijaj by Shaikh Tabrisi Volume 2 Page 109

وروى سماعة بن مهران قال: سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام قلت: يرد علينا حديثان، واحد يأمرنا بالأخذ به، والآخر به ينهانا عنه؟.
قال: لا تعمل بواحد منهما حتى تلقي صاحبك فتسأله عنه. قال: قلت: لا بد من أن نعمل بأحدهما.  قال: خذ بما فيه خلاف العامة، فقد أمر عليه السلام بترك ما وافق العامة،  لأنه يحتمل أن يكون قد ورد مورد التقية، وما خالفهم لا يحتمل ذلك

And  it is narrated from Sama'a b. Mahran, he said: I asked Aba Abdullah  (as), I  said: "Two ahadith are referred upon us, one ordering us to  follow through it and the other one of it forbidding us from it?  Imam(as) said:  "Do not act on any of them till you meet your master,  then ask  him about it." I said: I said: "There is no alternative than  that we act on one of them." Imam(as) said: "Follow what in it is against the aamah.
Shaikh  Tabrisi says: "Thus Imam (as) have ordered to leave what is in  accordance to the 'aama, for that it is possible that it has been stated  in a situation of taqiyya, and what is opposed to them that is not  possible."

Edited by swords_of_sunnah, 07 December 2011 - 08:24 PM.

[swords_of_sunnah]

Quote

باب التشهد في الركعتين الاولتين والرابعة والتسليم

Chapter on the Tashahud in the first two and the fourth and the Taslim

محمد  بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة بن أيوب عن الحسين  بن عثمان، عن ابن مسكان، عن الحلبي قال: قال لي أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام):  كلما ذكرت الله به والنبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) فهو من الصلاة وإن قلت:  السلام علينا وعلى عباد الله الصالحين فقد انصرفت (صحيح)
Muhammad  bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Husayn bin Said from Fadhala bin  Ayub from Husayn bin Uthman from Ibn Muskan from al-Halabiy who said :  Abu Abdillah (a.s) said to me : whatever you (recite) in remembrance of  Allah and the prophet (in the prayer) - then it is a part of your prayer  (i.e you are still in the prayer), and once (the moment) you say - ‘Assalamu Alayna Wa Ala Ibadillahi as-Saliheen’ (peace be upon us and  the righteous servants of Allah) then you have left (the prayer –  completed it). (Sahih)
NOTE : The meaning  is that this clause (since it is a remembrance of oneself and the rest  of the believers without direct reference to Allah or the prophet) is  the clause that removes one from the Salat, most ulama have given  Takhyir between it and saying Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah (peace be  upon you and the mercy of Allah) for finishing or ending the Salat.

Well from what the Imam prohibits from in shia hadeeth is actually done by Ahlesunnah, So he mean to say that the prayer of AHlesunnah is not a complete prayer.