38 replies to this topic

[Hadrami]

So you said "God didnt send sign because ancient rejected it" is a poor excuse, I assume youre speaking about Bani Israil 59 correct? Is it really an excuse to avoid the request though? I say this again, youve came to this not because of Qur'an but because your view of Allah, my view & understanding of Him, His Names & Attributes prevents me from thinking that way.

You do know in regards to that ayat mufassirun explained that the revelation related to an incident where the disbeliever requested Allah to turn as safa to gold. Allah said to Prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam that He will send punishment/"sign" of which no nation has ever been inflicted or seen before if after that they still rejected His messenger. Great punishment is what usually comes as you can find many examples, but apparently not in Prophet's Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam lifetime. He is different, just like theres no other prophet after him, just like theres no Kitab which is preserved like the one he conveyed etc.

I gave you the ta'if incident previously and Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wassalam knows what Jibril (as) would do but he refused, not surprisingly for this never seen before punishment he also asked for mercy.

Because i know Allah will not contradict Himself as you would believe, just stop for a moment and think like this:

Allah knows some of them will reject Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam (like the ancient) which means punishment would follow BUT Nabi asked Allah for mercy & not to punish even them. Knowing that, go read the ayat again.

BUT most importantly, change your view of Allah because He doesnt need to give you any excuse, He doesnt have to answer to you for whatever He does, He knows everything & you dont and many other thing that you as a former shia probably never understood.

This will be my last post as im no one will accept qur'an with your way of thinking & undestanding. Learn & ponder Allah's Names & Attributes properly before you approach Qur'an & you will be able to clear all your doubt. God Willing insha Allah.

[Link]

Hadrami, on 03 June 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Allah knows some of them will reject Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam (like the ancient) which means punishment would follow BUT Nabi asked Allah for mercy & not to punish even them. Knowing that, go read the ayat again.

I responded to this already. And people are repeating the same points.

Read the verse carefully:


وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا {59}
[Shakir 17:59] And nothing could have hindered Us that We should send signs except that the ancients rejected them; and We gave to Samood the she-camel-- a manifest sign-- but on her account they did injustice, and We do not send signs but to make (men) fear.
[Pickthal 17:59] Naught hindereth Us from sending portents save that the folk of old denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel - a clear portent save to warn.
[Yusufali 17:59] And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).

What's it stating in your view?

I deduce the two followings facts.

There is no reason for God not sending signs except one reason.
That reason is that ancients rejected the signs.

Do you disagree with either deductions?

I know people have a hard time even recognizing what this verse is saying because it's basically absurd so they imagine their own words in there.

Edited by Link, 03 June 2012 - 12:44 AM.

[Hadrami]

I dont disagree with that deduction, what i disagree is you ignoring the context then saying its just an excuse to avoid sending the sign (meaning no sign fake prophet, thats what youre saying really).

Sorry mate, the revelation was due to the disbeliever asking prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam for a mountain of gold & also the ayat should be read knowing that Prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam asked the arabs to be spared of Allah's punishment and to give them more time. What is it about non muslim quoting out of context.

Bear in mind, this is before the so called massacre the disbelievers ayat was revealed (another ayat non muslim love to quote, again out of context) which can be seen as a sort of punishment which is promised by Allah but done by the believers. (most of them also given more time and spared from it due to pardon/amnesty)

God didnt send the sign because the ancient rejected it (hence it will never ever happen to Prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam people due to his constant request for mercy). Why is that reading so absurd?

If thats too hard for you to swallow, im not surprised. You dont have a correct view of Allah plus you believe Prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam a liar. Insha Allah, He will give you enough time to realise your mistake. Forgot to note on my previous post, PM me if you want to continue (if i dont reply it means i consider its a repeat question & been answered).

[Link]

If you agree with the 1st deduction, then it doesn't make sense to give another reason or even another factor.  You are basically ignoring the reason stated by Quran and telling me another reason due to a hadith (Shias have a similar hadith).  What I'm trying to point out to you, is that Quran states other then the reason states, none of those are reasons.

If you agree with:

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There is no reason for God not sending signs except one reason.

Then it doesn't make sense to add reasons like "they wanted the sign, God gave the Prophet a choice, either he does the sign but if they reject, they will be punished, or rather keep the door of repentance open, he decided the latter, hence why signs were not sent".

[Link]

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God didnt send the sign because the ancient rejected it (hence it will never ever happen to Prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam people due to his constant request for mercy). Why is that reading so absurd?

The reasons in brackets (due to Prophet constant request from mercy) is totally different from the reason stated which is "the ancients rejected the signs".

I know it's hard to see this, I've read Quran for years, and was unable to not insert my own reasoning as if Quran stated that.

If there is going to be a solution, it lies in explaining the reason itself and why it's not illogical. It doesn't lie with coming up with different reasons.

So far, no one seems to grasp this.

[Link]

Going back to .Inshallah. proposition, another issue I find with that, is that at most it can be a factor. But not something that in itself caused without any separate factors that were not caused by it. If it was something that automatically would cause it, then I would understand it, but we know this not to be case, because for example it didn't stop miracles from sent in Isa time. So a variety of different factors had to take place, and amongst them it's people own will which is not caused by outside force but free. Also, Quran being a proof has to be an obvious factor or some sort of evidence (maybe truthfulness of the Prophet), but all these are stated to be none factors.

I honestly see no solution to this.

.Inshallah. proposition seemed like the best bet, but, it has many problems as I've shown, and has been proven to be illogical.

Edited by Link, 03 June 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[deeds]

bismillah irahmanirraheem
as salam alaikum

link this discussion will take a long time, although you have explained your pov we are very much still learning about your claim. its getting easier to see the light at the end of the tunnel (i am sure you can be persuaded, and or, shown that you are wrong) if it helps you i can tell you now, that i believe after having read your doubts/contentions that you have zero genuine points.

one of the problems is that you have chosen alot to discuss (and only understood a little) and have taken an extreme literal stance, which is designed to be anti. however you must understand you are using translations (english - which is not the same) and at times you appear to have focused too much on the translation, also you have skipped some sentences which explain in more detail the one reason you have seen and Allah SWT has given

take for example

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[Shakir 13:7] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.
[Yusufali 13:7] And the Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide.

This seems to be another red herring.

There being a guide for every people is also irrelevant to the issue. It seems to be another red herring. It seems like it avoids answering the question and objection.

1. Allah has told us they were disbelievers
2. they asked for portents to be sent down (we can discuss their motivation/mocking if you like)
3. The Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam has warned them (Allahs true Message)
4. if they want they can check with who they claim to Follow, see that they brought Miracles and Allahs True Message. you have remebered the miracles but have forgotten the true message, now its time to follow true message. check with those you claim to follow (regarding purpose of miracles- worship Allah and believe) you will see Mohammed SAW is part of the miracle so bow in submission to Allah

so you are lacking depth of understanding/reading. now you might claim that i am imagining the translation i have given but that is not the case since Allah has put those specific sentiments in one Verse for our understanding.

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The reason why is because previous Prophets were just warners, but that didn't prevent them from being sent a miracle/sign.

inshallah, get back to you on this later. but what state did the iman of those following virtues and miracles alone end up as?

[Link]

Do you know what a red herring is? Why it's a fallacy?

[Link]

Here is an example of red herring.

A Sunni asks: "Why didn't Quran say there will be 12 successors to the last Prophet?"
A Shia replies: "12 Caliphs are mentioned in Bukhari and Muslim".

This an example of red herring. Red herrings are clever guises. It seeks to bring up another issue that doesn't answer the question. You see in this case, the shia would be saying, well there is proof of 12 Caliphs. It has relationship to what is said. But it's cleverly avoiding the issue. It doesn't answer the question.

Likewise, stating "Why isn't Salah described in Quran?" is avoiding the issue as well, but this is more clever and harder to see why. But these are common fallacies you come up with. They look legitimate but they are red herrings.

Instead of directly saying "The reason why God didn't mention is this and that"...it seeks to distract the issue with red herrings.

Unless you answer the question directly, it's a red herring.

Red herrings and straw man are the most common logical fallacies.

Edited by Link, 03 June 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[SalafiWarrior]

Link it sounds as If you reading up to much on Answering Islam as most of your points are coming from that site. Let me ask you something, If you do not believe in the Quraan or Hadeeth but accept God do you have a better suggestion then following these two sources?

[Link]

SalafiWarrior, on 03 June 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Link it sounds as If you reading up to much on Answering Islam as most of your points are coming from that site.

My points are not coming from the site, but if they were, then they would not be illegitimate because of that. But can you link to me where they state the same things as I stated?

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Let me ask you something, If you do not believe in the Quraan or Hadeeth but accept God do you have a better suggestion then following these two sources?

I don't want to get into a philosophical discussion here. I want to remain on topic on this issue.

Edited by Link, 03 June 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[deeds]

now your just being stubborn, but to answer your question directly no its not a red herring, its not a fallacy. its Divine Wisdom and i thank Allah for allowing us to be a Believing Ummat not an Ummat which attempts to hold the Creator to ransom. this thread of yours has made me realise i am thankful to Allah for this particular Mercy.




do you know what belief is? ie as in Believers
not acceptable is the IMAN of those who follow virtues and miracles alone. so yes the verse is factually Correct in refering us to all the examples of the former people. seen with the Fact that the Prophet SAW was also given Miracles, so has his Ummat, it just wasnt used as tactical bait for the disbelievers. they were refered back to presenting the IMAN acceptable to Allah SWT


question of miracles and one of its negative sides runs deep in islamic thought. for example the Dajjal will show people 'miracles' and the disbelievers will believe IN him.
however the Believers will be striving successfully, with sacrifice, at the same time, and that is a miracle which muslims prefer. the coming and dua of Isa Alaihis salam which will kill Dajjal is miracle for us.

[Link]

deeds, on 03 June 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

now your just being stubborn, but to answer your question directly no its not a red herring, its not a fallacy. its Divine Wisdom

Your response is emotional. To be honest, I thought about these verses for a long time and it has settled in now. But if someone just brought this up to me while I believed I would probably react like you. You probably never realized anyone had a problem with these verses. You been use to reading Quran in a way that just sees everything coming from the divine and it's hard to stop and see logical fallacies. All five of your points you mention, none of them answer the question.  They are red herrings.

If you don't see it as a red herring, a lot people have a hard time recognizing red herrings as fallacies. This is why you will see Shias often when asked about why 12 Successors are not mentioned in Quran, will resort to 12 Caliphs hadith. It's so entrenched in people's way of speech.  Yes it's on topic about 12 Successors, but no, it's not answering the question. It's a red herring.

Edited by Link, 03 June 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[deeds]

it appears link is using some very carefully selected verses, whilst ignoring others, trying (unashamedly) to make a case here. but what and who is he/she wanting to discuss these with? with muslims? does he/she want to discuss?

im also coming to the conclusion that its just a shia trying a well known shia trick, one that ive faced before. however coming with the drama he/she has is looking worse then the fightback sneekback of the persian empire

Edited by deeds, 03 June 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[deeds]

Link, on 03 June 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

deeds, on 03 June 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

now your just being stubborn, but to answer your question directly no its not a red herring, its not a fallacy. its Divine Wisdom

Your response is emotional. All five of your points you mention, none of them answer the question.  They are red herrings. You already believe it's divine wisdom and you been reading Quran as if it's divine speech and everything it says is logical.

If you don't see it as a red herring, a lot people have a hard time recognizing red herrings as fallacies. This is why you will see Shias often when asked about why 12 Successors are not mentioned in Quran, will resort to 12 Caliphs hadith. It's so entrenched in people's way of speech.  Yes it's on topic about 12 Successors, but no, it's not answering the question. It's a red herring.

well i gave you my interpretation of 13:7 and you just said red herring, and did not want to discuss. lets discuss, do you want to discuss?



btw leave shia cult out of this, or take it to muslims vs shias

[Link]

deeds - here is a problem. Not the problem. A problem.

The Quran states "Nothing prevented us from sending signs except that the ancients rejected them".

This will automatically turn all the other verses into red herrings. Why? Because this verse is stating this is the one and only reason. Therefore all other verses can't be providing reasons or if they are, then there is a further contradiction in Quran.

Although I really don't see how any of your 4 points would answer why God is not sending a sign... I also don't know how you deduced 4 from just the phrase "You are only a warner and to every people a guide".

Edited by Link, 03 June 2012 - 09:35 PM.

[deeds]

the discussion is back on, like this we can get somewhere. hold it there,  it may take some time before i can reply

Edited by deeds, 03 June 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[deeds]

Link, on 03 June 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

deeds - here is a problem. Not the problem. A problem.

The Quran states "Nothing prevented us from sending signs except that the ancients rejected them".

This will automatically turn all the other verses into red herrings. Why? Because this verse is stating this is the one and only reason. Therefore all other verses can't be providing reasons or if they are, then there is a further contradiction in Quran.

Quran states "and not stopped us that we send the signs except denied them the (former) people" but i'll accept the translation you are using

now what verse are you putting forward as a contradiction or red herring?

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Although I really don't see how any of your 4 points would answer why God is not sending a sign...

i was showing you how to read with more depth.

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I also don't know how you deduced 4 from just the phrase "You are only a warner and to every people a guide".

i'll break it up for you:    And those who disbelieve say:   /   Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord?  /   You are only a warner and  /   (there is) a guide for every people.

Edited by deeds, 08 June 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Ali ahmed]

Assalam o alaikum every one