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Khidr alive - Abdaal be honest here


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#1 OFFLINE   Link

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Posted 10 September 2005 - 11:50 PM

Assalamu alaicom

the Quran says that whatever benefits the people, it stays in the earth


Accompany my zeal on the path, O Ta'ir al-Quds,  
The path to the goal is long, and I new to the journey.  
Leave not this stage without the company of Khidr,  
There is darkness ahead; be afraid of losing the way


Abdaal, do u agree with the above poem yes or no

do you believe khidr is alive yes or no

if yes too both,  then why is it strange that the remenance of auli-Mohammad http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif will stay on earth

there is a reason why Elyas (as), Idris (as), and Isa (as) and perhaps others who have not been mention just as not all Prophets (as) been mention, remain alive

now Abdaal, do you believe in the spiritual guidance of khidr (as) yes or no, do you believe we can see awliya and servants of God with the heart, yes or no, if so, you should respect the shia view that Imam Mahdi (ajf) still can guide mutaqeen who are not blind and can see with the heart and are patient and sure of God's communications and signs

#2 OFFLINE   Abdaal

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 06:50 PM

Link, on Sep 10 2005, 06:50 PM, said:

Assalamu alaicom
the Quran says that whatever benefits the people, it stays in the earth

Accompany my zeal on the path, O Ta'ir al-Quds, 
The path to the goal is long, and I new to the journey. 
Leave not this stage without the company of Khidr, 
There is darkness ahead; be afraid of losing the way

Abdaal, do u agree with the above poem yes or no

Never heard of this poem.. source ?

Quote

do you believe khidr is alive yes or no
Link many deobandis believe that Khwaja Khizr (as) is alive too. Its not just the Sufis.

Quote

if yes too both,  then why is it strange that the remenance of auli-Mohammad http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif will stay on earth
Where did i say it was strange?  I'm just not sure how Shias can be guided by the Unseen Imam. Also, the Mahdi of the Sunni faith does not match with the Mahdi of the Shia faith. He  will be declared the Mahdi, and  before that he will deny that he is the Mahdi. Also, the last Mahdi will refuse to be Calipah unless a voice will declare him. I guess these are all signs of his humbless.

Quote

there is a reason why Elyas (as), Idris (as), and Isa (as) and perhaps others who have not been mention just as not all Prophets (as) been mention, remain alive
Prophet Isa (as) and Prophet Idris (as) are mentioned in the Quran to be alive..

Quote

now Abdaal, do you believe in the spiritual guidance of khidr (as) yes or no, do you believe we can see awliya and servants of God with the heart, yes or no, if so, you should respect the shia view that Imam Mahdi (ajf) still can guide mutaqeen who are not blind and can see with the heart and are patient and sure of God's communications and signs

Link for me seeing with the heart is not enough. The reason is, i am not at that level where my heart has been opened at a spiritual level. THerefore, people like me need to sit in the company of the Awliya in order to enter the world of spirituality..
If  negating the  term kaffir from Shias, and opposing the  monopolization of the term momin makes me a non-Sunni then I am a non-Sunni.

http://proahlulbayt1.blogspot.com/

#3 OFFLINE   Link

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Posted 11 September 2005 - 07:19 PM

Abdaal, Khomeini (ra) in my view was one of the awliya, i still benefit from his teachings, but the guidance of an Imam (as) in shia view is in an absolute sense and is different that of awliya

I am all for sitting in the company of uluma who are more familiar with the path and rules of migration, but, i suggest you also check munajat shabaniya and 15 whispered prayers of Imam Sajjad (as), the Saheefa Sajadiya, you will see we have treasures for spiritual wayfaring with us, at the end it comes down to our own thiker,

but wiliyah Ahlulbayt (as) is a different matter all together, in du'a nudba we say '...where is the face of God that the awliya turn to, where is the vital connection between the earth and the skies...'

the completion of the favor was done on eidal khadeer, since we believe this, then it is absolutely impossible that we be left without Imam Mahdi (ajf)


wasalam

#4 OFFLINE   Abdaal

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 02:36 AM

Link, on Sep 11 2005, 02:19 PM, said:

Abdaal, Khomeini (ra) in my view was one of the awliya, i still benefit from his teachings, but the guidance of an Imam (as) in shia view is in an absolute sense and is different that of awliya
Imam Mahdi (as) is one of the Awliya of Allah. Except he is exalted Saint of Allah (swt).

Quote

I am all for sitting in the company of uluma who are more familiar with the path and rules of migration, but, i suggest you also check munajat shabaniya and 15 whispered prayers of Imam Sajjad (as), the Saheefa Sajadiya, you will see we have treasures for spiritual wayfaring with us, at the end it comes down to our own thiker,
There is no doubt that Imam Sajjad (as) was a Ghous of the time. There is no Sufi Saint  group that denies this... Many of the Tariqath are connect to him.

Quote

but wiliyah Ahlulbayt (as) is a different matter all together, in du'a nudba we say '...where is the face of God that the awliya turn to, where is the vital connection between the earth and the skies...'
Two types of Waliayth..
Waliyath -e -Kubra  = Ahlul Bayt
Waliyath - e - shugra = Auwlia

Quote

the completion of the favor was done on eidal khadeer, since we believe this, then it is absolutely impossible that we be left without Imam Mahdi (ajf)
wasalam
Sure he is the Seal of Waliyath e Kubra.  However we don't believe he is the unseen. Plus again he will declared. It is Allah (swt) will when he want the Mahdi to appear. There are always other Walis of Allah who are always ready to reform the people. How did the other Auwlia  spread their Islam ?  With the help of Allah (swt). They were sent as guides to reform the Ummah and spread the deen.
If  negating the  term kaffir from Shias, and opposing the  monopolization of the term momin makes me a non-Sunni then I am a non-Sunni.

http://proahlulbayt1.blogspot.com/

#5 salmany

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 05:18 PM

Salamu Alaikum

Quote

Link many deobandis believe that Khwaja Khizr (as) is alive too. Its not just the Sufis.

Deobandis are people heavily into Tasawwuf.

Anyway, the majority of Ahly Sunnah believe the above. Among the strongest transmitted proofs to this effect are two reports, one narrated by Imam Ahmad in Al Zuhd whereby the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- said that Ilyas and Al Khidr meet every year and spend the month of Ramadan in Al Qudus, and the other narrated by Ya'qub ibn Sufyan from Umar ibn Abdul Aziz whereby a man he was seen walking with was actually Al Khidr. Ibn Hajar declared the chain of the first fair and that of the second sound in Fath al-Bari (6:435). He goes on to cite another sound report narrated by Ibn Asakir from Abu Zur'a whereby the latter met al-Khidr twice, once in his young age, the other in his old age, but Al Khidr himself had not changed.

Actually it is well known that Imam Nawawi used to converse with Sayyidina Khidr as Imam Sakhawi stated in his biography of him.

Regardless, the belief in Sayyidina Khidr is from sound Prophetic hadith, something which cannot be said about the Ghayba of the Mahdi, for none of the Prophetic hadith predict an Imam going into hiding or so forth.

Wasalam

Edited by salmany, 12 September 2005 - 05:19 PM.


#6 OFFLINE   UmarBinKhatab

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 02:19 PM

Salam Alikum Al brothers and sisters. Sorry for this long unexpected leave. I guess still my problems are not over yet....Insha Allah I will try to dedicate my time for this forum as soon as I finish with them.

As for Khidr (as) then the believe of Ahlul Sunnah is that his dead and the prove is this authentic hadeeths from AL_BUKHARI

Abd-Allaah ibn Umar, who said: The Prophet  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) led us in praying Ishaa towards the end of his life. When he had said the salaam, he stood up and said: Do you see this night of yours? One hundred years from now, there will not be anyone left of those who are on the face of the earth. (1.116)

Al-Nawawi said: What is meant is that everyone who was on the face of the earth on that night would not live for more than one hundred years after that night, whether he was young on that occasion or not. It does not mean that anyone who was born after that night would not live for a hundred years. And Allaah knows best.


And here is an Aya from Quran Kareem


وَمَا جَعَلْنَا لِبَشَرٍ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ الْخُلْدَ أَفَإِنْ مِتَّ فَهُمُ الْخَالِدُونَ

We granted not to any man before you (MUHAMMAD) permanent life (here): if then thou shouldst die, would they live permanently?

Al-Qur'an, 021.034 (Al-Anbiya [The Prophets])

Here Allah says that non of humans before our beloved Messenger was granted everlasting live, which means evey one who came before messenger http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif tasted death.

Wa Salam Alikum

Edited by UmarBinKhatab, 30 September 2005 - 02:29 PM.

On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:

Allah the Almighty has said: "O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

related by Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a good and sound Hadith.

#7 Deen Muhammad

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 03:02 PM

AGAR TUM YE KEH RAHE HO KE NAOzOBILLAH KHIzR A.S WAFAT PACHUKAY HAIN TO TUM TO SAB SE BADE MUNKIR-E-QURAN HO OFCOURSE JO TUM HO OR AGAR TUM YEH KEHTE HO KE ALLAH NE YE KAHA HAI KE  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image012.gif SE PEHLE KISI KO LAMBI HAYAT NAHIN DI OR SAB NE MOT KA MAZA CHAKHA HAI TO PHIR HAZRAT ESSA A.S KA QISSA KAHAN BHOOLGAY YE BHI TO QURAN MAIN HI HAI
OR AGAR HAZRAT KHIZR A.S DEAD HAIN TO HAZRAT MOOSSA NABI-E-ALLAH KA QISSSA JO SORA-E-KAHAF MAIN 16TH PARE MAIN HAI US MAIN HAZRAT KHIZR KA ZIKR KYUN AYA HAI <edited for slander/personal attack>
IS KA JAWAB DO PHIR KOI BAAT POOCHNA <edited for slander/personal attack>

[ Mods Note: Account suspended for OTT personal attack on a moderator ]

Edited by perplexed, 30 September 2005 - 05:16 PM.


#8 ONLINE   UmarBinKhatab

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 03:12 PM

Write in English.

Edited by UmarBinKhatab, 30 September 2005 - 03:12 PM.

On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:

Allah the Almighty has said: "O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

related by Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a good and sound Hadith.

#9 Deen Muhammad

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 04:26 PM

jawab to esa do ke samne wale ko padhker us main se kuch logic mile kya samjhe bewaqoof like this!
jiss gossht main maZa nahin us <edited for tabarra>

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Edited by perplexed, 30 September 2005 - 05:14 PM.


#10 OFFLINE   Abdaal

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 06:20 PM

UmarBinKhatab, on Sep 30 2005, 09:19 AM, said:

Salam Alikum Al brothers and sisters. Sorry for this long unexpected leave. I guess still my problems are not over yet....Insha Allah I will try to dedicate my time for this forum as soon as I finish with them.

As for Khidr (as) then the believe of Ahlul Sunnah is that his dead and the prove is this authentic hadeeths from AL_BUKHARI

Abd-Allaah ibn Umar, who said: The Prophet  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) led us in praying Ishaa towards the end of his life. When he had said the salaam, he stood up and said: Do you see this night of yours? One hundred years from now, there will not be anyone left of those who are on the face of the earth. (1.116)

Al-Nawawi said: What is meant is that everyone who was on the face of the earth on that night would not live for more than one hundred years after that night, whether he was young on that occasion or not. It does not mean that anyone who was born after that night would not live for a hundred years. And Allaah knows best.


And here is an Aya from Quran Kareem


وَمَا جَعَلْنَا لِبَشَرٍ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ الْخُلْدَ أَفَإِنْ مِتَّ فَهُمُ الْخَالِدُونَ

We granted not to any man before you (MUHAMMAD) permanent life (here): if then thou shouldst die, would they live permanently?

Al-Qur'an, 021.034 (Al-Anbiya [The Prophets])

Here Allah says that non of humans before our beloved Messenger was granted everlasting live, which means evey one who came before messenger http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif tasted death.

Wa Salam Alikum

View Post


U have just given the Qadianis some power to attack us. Do you believe at least that Prophet Isa (as) is alive cause your last proof goes against that. Khwaja Khizr and Prophet Ilyas are little harder to prove whether they are alive or not. The reason is the hadith the that claims that are weak, but still accepted by many. However, Prophet Isa (as) being alive is in the Quran.
If  negating the  term kaffir from Shias, and opposing the  monopolization of the term momin makes me a non-Sunni then I am a non-Sunni.

http://proahlulbayt1.blogspot.com/

#11 ONLINE   Zafaryab

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 09:45 PM

http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image006.gif

Permanent life probably means immortality.. slight different than a long MORTAL life...  wassalaamun alaikum

#12 OFFLINE   Abdaal

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 09:53 PM

Zafaryab, on Sep 30 2005, 04:45 PM, said:

http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image006.gif

Permanent life probably means immortality.. slight different than a long MORTAL life...  wassalaamun alaikum

View Post

Yah even Malik ul Mout (angel of death) has to go one day.
If  negating the  term kaffir from Shias, and opposing the  monopolization of the term momin makes me a non-Sunni then I am a non-Sunni.

http://proahlulbayt1.blogspot.com/

#13 OFFLINE   UmarBinKhatab

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 11:46 AM

Abdaal, on Sep 30 2005, 09:20 PM, said:

U have just given the Qadianis some power to attack us.
May I ask how?

Infact people who claim he is alive, help dajjal's like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to take birth again and again.

The suggestion that he is alive (without sahih hadeeths) has opened the door to many myths and lies.  Many people claim that they have met Al-Khidr, that he gave them advice and commanded them to do things.  They narrated many strange stories concerning such things, reports which a sound mind would reject.


Abdaal, on Sep 30 2005, 09:20 PM, said:

Do you believe at least that Prophet Isa (as) is alive cause your last proof goes against that.
Yes he is alive and the Aya and Hadeeths are noway in contradiction to this. Read the aya and hadeeths (with open mind).

Qur'an
We granted not to any man before you (MUHAMMAD) permanent life (here):

Permanent life on earth not in paradise.

Hadeeths
Do you see this night of yours? One hundred years from now, there will not be anyone left of those who are on the face of the earth.

So both these aya and hadeeths speak regarding earth and Isa (as) is not living on earth....did you get it?

Abdaal, on Sep 30 2005, 09:20 PM, said:

The reason is the hadith the that claims that are weak, but still accepted by many.
Regarding hadeeths that claim he is alive, some of the greatest scholars of hadith, such as Bukhari, ibn Dihyah, ibn Katheer and ibn Hajr al-Asqallaani have sought to prove that these reports are daeef (weak).  The strongest evidence to refute those who say that Al-Khidr is alive is the fact that there is no saheeh hadith to support this notion.  If he were alive, it would have been obligatory for him to come to the Messenger http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif, to follow him and support him.  Allaah made a covenant with the Prophets from before that they would believe in Muhammad and support him if he came during their time:


Aali Imran (3):81
وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّيْنَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُم مِّن كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَى ذَلِكُمْ إِصْرِي قَالُواْ أَقْرَرْنَا قَالَ فَاشْهَدُواْ وَأَنَاْ مَعَكُم مِّنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ

And (remember) when Allh took the Covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah (understanding of the Laws of Allh, etc.), and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger (Muhammad (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam)) confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him." Allh said: "Do you agree (to it) and will you take up My Covenant (which I conclude with you)?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses (for this)."

The Messenger http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif, said that if Moosa had been alive, he would have had no choice but to follow him.  Ibraaheem al-Harbi asked Ahmad ibn Hanbal about the idea of Al-Khidr and Ilyaas still being alive, and whether they could still be seen and whether stories could be narrated from them.  Ahmed said, I think that all of these stories are coming from Shaytaan. (Majmoo al-Fataawa Shaykh al-Islam, 4/337).  Bukhari was asked about Al-Khidr and Ilyaas, are they among the living? He said, How could that be so when the Prophet http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif said, In one hundred  years time there will be no one left who is on the face of the earth now. (Majmoo al-Fataawa Shaykh al-Islam, 4/337).

A number of prominent scholars went to a great length to quote evidence which  disproves these myths, such as Ibn Katheer in Al-Bidaayah wan-Nihaayah (1/326); Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen ash-Shanqeeti in Adwaa al-Bayaan (4/184); Ibn Hajr al-Asqallaani wrote an essay concerning that, entitled Az-Zahr an-Nadr fi Naba al-Khidr, this is published in Majmooah ar-Rasaail al-Muneeriyah (2/195)


Conclusion
The hadeeths which claim he is alive are weak but that which give hints to his death are saheeh, so its upto you what to take and leave.


Wa Salam Alikum

Edited by UmarBinKhatab, 01 October 2005 - 12:01 PM.

On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:

Allah the Almighty has said: "O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

related by Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a good and sound Hadith.

#14 OFFLINE   Abdaal

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 05:35 PM

Quote

Al-Qur'an, 021.034 (Al-Anbiya [The Prophets])

Here Allah says that non of humans before our beloved Messenger was granted everlasting live, which means evey one who came before messenger image008.gif tasted death.
Check this interpretation..
Doesn't it contradict the event of Prophet Isa (as) still being alive..
If  negating the  term kaffir from Shias, and opposing the  monopolization of the term momin makes me a non-Sunni then I am a non-Sunni.

http://proahlulbayt1.blogspot.com/

#15 OFFLINE   Abdaal

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 05:40 PM

Here is the evidence i have..
There are differences (Ikhtilaaf) amongst the scholars regarding whether Khidr (Alay hissalaam) is still alive, or has died.  There also exists Ikhtilaaf regarding whether Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was a Prophet or a saint. Many scholars are of the opinion that he is still alive, while others, such as Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah and his followers is of the opinion that he has died.

Evidence suggesting that Khidr alaihi salaam is alive

In Sahih Muslim we find the following narration:

Dajjaal will kill a person once and then bring him back to life, then he will ask him, Do you believe that I am God?  That person will reply, No! I am convinced that you are the Dajjaal of which the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) informed us. Dajjaal will throw him in his fire, which in reality will be Paradise.The narrator of this Hadith is Abu Is-haaq who says: It is commonly known that this person would be Khidr (Alay hissalaam).

(Sahih Muslim, Chapter on Dajjaal)

Abu Is-haaq was amongst the Tabatabieen and it was common knowledge during that period that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was alive and his death will occur at the time of Dajjaal.

Hafidhh Ibn Kathir states:

King Zulqarnain discovered a type of water referred to as the water of life which when drank would allow a person to remain alive forever.  He departed with many people searching for it, and Khidr, (Alay hissalaam) was also with him. At one place Khidr (Alay hissalaam) drank some water and the King did not.

[Tareekh by Ibn Kathir, volume 1 chapter Zulqarnain]

Hafidhh Ibn Hajar Asqalani says in his Asabah that Khidrs name is in the list of Companions of our Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace).)

Hafidhh Ibn Kathir writes: When the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) departed from this world, Umar heard someone come into the house but saw no-one, when he asked, Umar said it was Khidr (Alay hissalaam).  Then a voice was heard which said, O household of the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace), be patient. Ali said it was Khidr (Alay hissalaam).

Imam Bayhaqi said: These narrations are weak, but there are so many similar narrations, which suggests that they do have some origin. The coming of Khidr upon the death of the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace).

(Sirat-un-Nabi and Tareekh ibn Kathir chap Demise of Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) by Hafidhh ibn Kathir).

Other narrations of a similar nature can be found including the following made by someone who is very much respected by certain factions :

Ibn Muhammad bin Abdul Wahaab al Najdi writes, After the death of the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) a voice was heard, O family of the Prophet, be patient and peace be upon you. [Mukhtaser Sirat-ur-Rasool, Chapter Death of Prophet]

We can mention here a very important scholarly point that are made by countless scholars including Hafidhh Ibn Kathir who writes,

If there exist many narrations regarding one issue, then even if they are weak, they can be accepted. [Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Surah Al-Anam, verse 123]

Hafidhh Ibn Kathir states that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was the son of Adam (Alay hissalaam),  who prayed to Allah: O Allah, give my son Khidr a long life so that he lives until the Day of Judgement. Adam (Alay hissalaam) also told Khidr (Alay hissalaam) O my son, you shall bury me after my death. He also gave him news of his long life. Khidr (Alay hissalaam) also sat in the boat of the Prophet Nuh (Alay hissalaam).

[Tareekh by Ibn Kathir, Volume One, Chapter Musa and Khidr]

There have been many narrations of various types some which have been rejected by the scholars for example Hafidhh Ibn Kathir rejected the statements which claimed that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was the son of Pharaoh or that he was born during Pharaohs time. He strictly says he was alive a long time before Musa (Alay hissalaam).

[Tareekh by Ibn Kathir, Volume One, Chapter Musa and Khidr]

Imam Dhahabi writes, Umar bin Abdul Aziz was talking with a man. After he had finished talking with him, he returned and someone asked him who, he had been talking with. He replied, He was Khidr and he came to give me some good news, that I will be the ruler of the Muslim world.

(Tadkarahtul Huffaz biography of Umar bin Abdul Aziz by Imam Dhahabi)

Imam Nawawi also provides many references and statements given by many scholars, proving that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) is still alive.  (Sharh Muslim, Chapter on Dajjaal)

From the aforementioned evidence, it can be clearly seen that the narrations support the opinion of those Ulama who say that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) is still alive.

Some people raise a question by saying:

In Bukhari there is a Hadith where the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) states, Of all the people who are alive upon the earth on this day, none will be living in a hundred years time.

Secondly he said that: The Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) supplicated (dua) upon the occasion of the battle of Badr.  There are three hundred and thirteen people with me. If we do not triumph then no one will be left to worship you Oh Allah.  Following this evidence, Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah and his follwers conclude that if Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was alive then he should have joined the army and made the number amount to three hundred and fourteen.

Answers to the objections

(1) The Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) stated: Of those alive on the earth, none will be alive in a hundred years time. It is possible that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) at that particular moment was present in a location other than this world (dunya). Just as Isa (Alay hissalaam) was also alive at that time. If Isa (Alay hissalaam) never came down to help the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) in the battle of Badr then this did not break his promise that he made with Allah most High, in the spiritual world.  In the same manner, there is nothing inappropriate regarding the fact that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) never joined the army for the battle. Having said that there is no confirmation that he did or did not join the Muslim army in the Battle of Badr since he is an unseen person. It may also be possible that he joined, but our Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) never mentioned his name like the thousands of angels who fought in this great battle  but the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) never mentioned all their names. So this means that Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyahs suspicions are insufficient to support the opinion that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) has died. There is not even a single weak Hadith to support this opinion let alone an authentic one.

(2) At the time of the Battle of Badr the population of the Muslim Ummah was not just three hundred and thirteen, In fact there were Muslims present in Madinah Munawarah who did not fight in the battle.

The explanation of the dua is. There will be none to worship you with victory. For no doubt the Muslims in Madinah, Abysinnia and Makkah would have continued to worship Allah.

From the aforementioned, according to Hafidhh Ibn Kathir, Khidr (Alay hissalaam) was alive from the time of Adam (Alay hissalaam) up until the time of Musa (Alay hissalaam). It seems rather unusual that Ibn Kathir rejected the understanding that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) could not live after the time of Musa (Alay hisalaam)

Comments

To conclude this chapter, it is clear that Ibn Taymiyyah and those who adhere to his principles do not believe that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) is alive.

It is very disturbing to see that on one side many narrations exist which prove the validity of Khidr (Alay hissalaam) being alive but on the other side there are the suspicions of Ibn Taymiyyah and those who blindly follow him. Such as, Hafidhh Ibn Kathir, who after having written the above narrations was convinced by Hafidhh ibn Taymiyyahs understanding, still continue to create doubts in the minds of Muslims.

It must be understood that the belief that Khidr (Alay hissalaam) is still alive is not a matter of aqeedah and has no relation to Imaan and kufr.

We ask Allah  O Allah whatever we have said, if it is true accept it but if it is false we ask you to forgive us. Ameen!
If  negating the  term kaffir from Shias, and opposing the  monopolization of the term momin makes me a non-Sunni then I am a non-Sunni.

http://proahlulbayt1.blogspot.com/

#16 ONLINE   brutal_33

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 07:45 PM

Abdaal, on Oct 1 2005, 02:35 PM, said:

Quote

Al-Qur'an, 021.034 (Al-Anbiya [The Prophets])

Here Allah says that non of humans before our beloved Messenger was granted everlasting live, which means evey one who came before messenger image008.gif tasted death.
Check this interpretation..
Doesn't it contradict the event of Prophet Isa (as) still being alive..

View Post


http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image006.gif ,

Brother, Hadhrat Isa' (as) 's case is an exception.  He did not die and it is proven from these clear cut verses of Quran.

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself
; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

On the other hand hadhrat khidr's existence can't be proven from Quran or the Sahih ahadeeth.

http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image005.gif

Edited by brutal_33, 01 October 2005 - 07:46 PM.

Shia-ism Is Based on Shirk, Lies, Anger, Emotions, Distorted Islamic History, Frustration, Muta'h (Zana), Tabarra (Swearing) and Dramatization.  It has NOTHING to do with ISLAM.

============

Wah maula kaisi saza hai qatil e hussain ki
Apna hi seena peet'tey hain aqeedat kay naam par

=====

Jis seenay main bughz ho siddiq ka farooq ka  
Behtar hai woh seena sada pit'ta hi rahey

#17 salmany

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 07:45 PM

Salamu Alaikum Sidi

Quote

Ibn Hajr al-Asqallaani wrote an essay concerning that, entitled Az-Zahr an-Nadr fi Naba al-Khidr, this is published in Majmooah ar-Rasaail al-Muneeriyah (2/195)

Imam Suyuti stated in his Al Radd 'Ala Man Akhlada:

- There is not on the face of the earth from East to West anyone more knowledgeable than myself in hadith and the Arabic language, unless it be al-Khidr or the Pole of saints or some (other) Wali....

Similalry Imam Shawkani stated that it was "well known" that Imam Nawawi conversed with Khidr.

Thus the position that Khidr is *alive* is not an aberrant one.

Secondly, when did Ibn Hajars Al Zahr become a *refutation* for the belief that Khidr was alive, for he clearly sides with the Jamhur over the fact that Khidr is alive and well as he narrates Khidrs meeting with many of his own teachers in his monograph and in the Isaba.

Thirdly, in the Mishkat Al Masabih of Tibrizi and Imam Bayhaqis Dala'il whereupon a voice was heard saying "Salamu Alaikum Ya Ahl Al Bayt...", which `Ali Zayn al-`Abidin said was the voice of Khidr. Shaikh Albani in his Talkhis states that the narration is "Sahih". This voice was heard when the angel of death came to take the Prophet.

وجاءت التعزية سمعوا صوتا من ناحية البيت السلام عليكم أهل البيت ورحمة الله وبركاته إن في الله عزاء من كل مصيبة وخلفا من كل هالك ودركا من كل فائت فبالله فثقوا وإياه فارجوا فإنما المصاب من حرم الثواب . فقال علي أتدرون من هذا ؟ هو الخضر عليه السلام . رواه البيهقي في دلائل النبوة .   ( صحيح )

Fourthly Shaikh al Islam Ibn Hajar himself authenticates two hadith related to Khidr, one from Imam Ahmads Zuhd - which is Hasan.

You stated:

Quote

Al-Nawawi said: What is meant is that everyone who was on the face of the earth on that night would not live for more than one hundred years after that night, whether he was young on that occasion or not. It does not mean that anyone who was born after that night would not live for a hundred years. And Allaah knows best.

By Allah Sidi, this is mere deception! For Imam Nawawi clearly states the line immediately after the above:

فقال : الخضر عليه السلام ميت , والجمهور على حياته كما سبق في باب فضائله , ويتأولون هذه الأحاديث على أنه كان على البحر لا على الأرض , أو أنها عام

So clearly Imam Nawawi Acknolwedges that the Jamhur (Majority) state he is alive, and that this hadith does not apply to him for the reason mentioned above.

Now since you brought up Imam Nawawi, it would only be fair to state what Imam Nawawi stated. In his Tahdhib Asma' he said:

‏وقال النووي في تهذيب الأسماء : واختلفوا في حياة الخضر ونبوته فقال الأكثرون من العلماء هو حي موجود بين أظهرنا وذلك متفق عليه عند الصوفية وأهل الصلاح والمعرفة وحكاياتهم في رؤيته والاجتماع به والأخذ عنه وسؤاله وجوابه ووجوده في المواضع الشريفة ومواطن الخير أكثر من أن يحصر وأشهر من أن يذكر

That there is difference whether Khidr is alive, but many (Aksar) of the Ulema state that he is alive and present, and there is an Ijma on this amongst the Sufis, the people of righteousness, knowledge and wisdom.

Similarly Shaikh Ibn Salah stated that the Jamhur stated he was alive:

قال الشيخ أبو عمرو بن الصلاح في فتاويه هو حي عند جماهير العلماء والصالحين

Ofcourse there were people who stated he died.

Wasalam

#18 salmany

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 08:13 PM

Quote

Brother, Hadhrat Isa' (as) 's case is an exception.  He did not die and it is proven from these clear cut verses of Quran.

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself
; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

On the other hand hadhrat khidr's existence can't be proven from Quran or the Sahih ahadeeth.

http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image005.gif

View Post


Salamu Alaikum

What i understand from the way people go about with things here is that even if an opinion is established as followable or as a Majority opinion, someone will somehow bring a few quotes from certain Ulema to state that that specific stance is wrong.

How can you say that Sayyidina 'Isa did not die when the verse says "they killed him not" which does not necessarily preclude death, but death at the hands of specific people.

And how can you say the proof is Qati' that he is living right now when it is not? For the word used in the Qur'an is what one may call a "difficult word" (Gharib). Imam Suyuti while discussing it in his Al Itiqan states simply that it means, "causing you to die".

Yet Imam Suyuti also states he was raised, so how is it reconciled? Because the death took place *after* being raised, and the order of the verse quoted is a case of "postposition" (muqaddam wa mu'akhkhar) as stated by Al Suyuti himself in the chapter devoted to this rhetorical figure in the same book.

Imam Tabari and Baghawi prefer the opinion that he did not die at all.

Imam Bukhari also supports Suyutis opinion that Sayyidina 'Isa died after being raised, as he narrates it positively to Ibn Abbas in his Sahih. It is the only hadith he narrates on the particular verse.

So there is indeed a difference of opinion on the given issue - Imam Baghawi makes this clear in his Tafsir. Thus, arguing about it is useless because the Qur'an does not unambiguously state Sayyidina Isa did not die, if it did difference on the issue would be unacceptable.

Does this preclude his coming back? No because it is mass transmitted.

Wasalam

Edited by salmany, 01 October 2005 - 08:14 PM.


#19 OFFLINE   UmarBinKhatab

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 08:53 PM

Quote

Quote

Al-Qur'an, 021.034 (Al-Anbiya [The Prophets])

Here Allah says that non of humans before our beloved Messenger was granted everlasting live, which means evey one who came before messenger image008.gif tasted death.

Check this interpretation..
Doesn't it contradict the event of Prophet Isa (as) still being alive..

Didn't I clarify that in my above post? What was the purpose of rasing the issue again? Ok I admit that it was my mistake for not mentioning earth in my first post.


Quote

In Sahih Muslim we find the following narration:

Dajjaal will kill a person once and then bring him back to life, then he will ask him, Do you believe that I am God? That person will reply, No! I am convinced that you are the Dajjaal of which the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) informed us. Dajjaal will throw him in his fire, which in reality will be Paradise.The narrator of this Hadith is Abu Is-haaq who says: It is commonly known that this person would be Khidr (Alay hissalaam).

(Sahih Muslim, Chapter on Dajjaal)

Here is the correct translation for the above hadeeths you mention.


حدثنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يوما حديثا طويلا عن الدجال. فكان فيما حدثنا قال "يأتي، وهو محرم عليه أن يدخل نقاب المدينة. فينتهي إلى بعض السباخ التي تلي المدينة. فيخرج إليه يومئذ رجل هو خير الناس، أو من خير الناس. فيقول له: أشهد أنك الدجال الذي حدثنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حديثه. فيقول الدجال: أرأيتم إن قتلت هذا ثم أحييته، أتشكون في الأمر؟ فيقولون: لا. قال فيقتله ثم يحييه. فيقول حين يحييه: والله! ما كنت فيك قط أشد بصيرة مني الآن. قال فيريد الدجال أن يقتله فلا يسلط عليه".
قال أبو إسحاق: يقال إن هذا الرجل هو الخضر عليه السلام.



Chapter 19: THE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE DAJJAL AND A BAN ON HIS ENTRY TO MEDINA AND HIS KILLING OF A BELIEVER AND THEN RESTORING HIM TO LIFE

Book 041, Number 7017:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) one day gave a detailed account of the Dajjal and in that it was also included: He would come but would not be allowed to ether the mountain passes to Medina. So he will alight at some of the barren tracts near Medina, and a person who would be the best of men or one from amongst the best of men would say to him: I bear testimony to the fact that you are Dajjal about whom Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had informed us. The Dajjal would say: What is your opinion if I kill this (person), then I bring him back to life; even then will you harbour doubt in this matter? They would say: No. He would then kill (the man) and then bring him back to life. When he would bring tha@ person to life, he would say: By Allah, I had no better proof of the fact (that you are a Dajjal) than at the present time (that you are actually so). The Dajjal would then make an attempt to kill him (again) but he would not be able to do that. Abu Ishaq reported that it was said: That person would be Khadir (Allah be pleased with him).


"It was said"....Such a statement cannot be taken as a prove for his existence. To prove he is alive you must get saheeh hadeeths i.e. a hadeeths with chain of trustworthy reporters linking to messenger of Allah http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif.

Like I said there is not even a single Saheeh hadeeths regarding Khidr (as) that he is alive, and I have no interest in draging this issue.

Edited by UmarBinKhatab, 01 October 2005 - 09:00 PM.

On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:

Allah the Almighty has said: "O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

related by Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a good and sound Hadith.

#20 salmany

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 10:23 PM

Salamu Alaikum Sidi

Quote

"It was said"....Such a statement cannot be taken as a prove for his existence

Such a statement can be taken as proof that there were people and authorities who regarded his existence as true within the specified time frame. Anyone familiar with hadith would know the term "it was said" means that said by the people of his time.

Imam Nawawi commenting on this section states:

‏أبو إسحاق هذا هو إبراهيم بن سفيان راوي الكتاب عن مسلم , وكذا قال معمر في جامعه في أثر هذا الحديث كما ذكره ابن سفيان , وهذا تصريح منه بحياة الخضر عليه السلام , وهو الصحيح , وقد سبق في بابه من كتاب المناقب

that the same was stated by Ma'amar, who is well known amongst the Ulema. Then he goes onto say that this *is* proof of Khidrs Alaihis Salams existence which is "Sahih".

The fact of the matter is: There is a difference of opinion on this, so no one should be condemned for holding either.

Wasalam





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