18 replies to this topic

[Ahlusunnah]

Assalamualaikum, we know majority in Islamic word recite in Hafs transmission

The chain of Hafs transmission is as below

Hafs bin Sulaiman al Asadi Al Kufi >> Asim Bin Abi Nujud Al Kufi >> Abi Abdur Rahman As Sulemi >> Uthman bi Affan , Ali Bin Abu Talib, Zaid Bin Thabit , Ubay Bin K’ab  >> Prophet s.a.w.a

Shia claimed they chain is Hafs bin Sulaiman al Asadi Al Kufi >> Asim Bin Abi Nujud Al Kufi >> Abi Abdur Rahman As Sulemi >> Ali Bin Abu Talib>> Prophet s.a.w.a

They also claim Hafs bin Sulaiman is shia and heavily criticized by the Sunni ulema of Rijal, Asim Bin Abi Nujud Al Kufi is also shia and also criticized by sunni ulema of rijal. Abi  Abdur Rahman as Selimi was shia

It is now very evident question where is sunni Qur’an?  

What is your view?

[swords_of_sunnah]

Last time i checked Asim was criticized by shias for being Uthmani, and that he was the one who added the addition for father of mahdi's name would be same to Prophet's(Saw) father name.

[swords_of_sunnah]

This might help you:
http://www.ahlalhdee...read.php?t=8805

[Ebn Hussein]

This is a big talbees by the Rafidah propagandists, they betray their own souls and the souls of their followers for their scholars know very well that those men in the narration 'an Hafs would be considered BLOODY Bakris/Omaris/Sunnis/Wahhabis acc. to Rafidi standards, their Tashayyu' was the Tashayyu' of the Salaf i.e. political not religious that means they were SUNNIS (by all means):

Hafsa 'an 'Asim, the only Qira'at the twelver sect accepts (if at all, for the major Shia scholars and compilers of their Hadith and Tafsir books do not even believe in the correctness of the Qur'an at all) has been narrated by only ONE member of the Ahl Al-Bayt, the rest in the chain are the likes of:



(MUNAFIQEEN in the chain ACCORDING TO SHI'ISM!)

There is only ONE (according to the Shia) infallible in the chain. All the others are Sahabah, Salaf i.e. friends of Ali. If one of them is a twelver in belief then let us know. Otherwise, how do you take the bigger Thaql of the Thaqalayn from non-infallibles but reject the narrations that are narrated by Sahabah.

[Ebn Hussein]

http://islamic-forum...opic=15033&st=0

[Nader Zaveri]

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

Ahlusunnah, on 30 August 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

The chain of Hafs transmission is as below

Hafs bin Sulaiman al Asadi Al Kufi >> Asim Bin Abi Nujud Al Kufi >> Abi Abdur Rahman As Sulemi >> Uthman bi Affan , Ali Bin Abu Talib, Zaid Bin Thabit , Ubay Bin K’ab  >> Prophet s.a.w.a

Shia claimed they chain is Hafs bin Sulaiman al Asadi Al Kufi >> Asim Bin Abi Nujud Al Kufi >> Abi Abdur Rahman As Sulemi >> Ali Bin Abu Talib>> Prophet s.a.w.a

They also claim Hafs bin Sulaiman is shia and heavily criticized by the Sunni ulema of Rijal, Asim Bin Abi Nujud Al Kufi is also shia and also criticized by sunni ulema of rijal. Abi  Abdur Rahman as Selimi was shia

It is now very evident question where is sunni Qur’an?  

What is your view?

I have read this argument before, and this attempt is very speculative. None of the classical or medeival scholars of Shee`ah `ilm al-Rijaal regard any of these narrators as Shee`ah, it doesn't come until much much later. Inshaa'Allaah, when I get home, I'll show you their argument and the major flaws in it.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

Edited by Nader Zaveri, 30 August 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Hani]

I'll save u guys the time, there's no Twelver Shia chain for the Quran.

[Nader Zaveri]

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

Not at home, but here is what al-Toosi says about Hafs b. Sulaymaan as a companion of the 6th Imaam.


2323 - 180 - حفص بن سليمان أبو عمر
الأسدي الغاضري المقري البزاز الكوفي أسند عنه.



The grading of Asnad `Anhu is very unique, as the only one to use this was al-Toosi, and he has only used it in his al-Rijaal. Many scholars have speculated on what it actually means, but I have yet to seen any major Rijaal scholar attempt to make it mean a form of madH (praise). Some say it is jarH or that it makes the person majhool.

So I don't know where they get it from, I know of Muhsin al-Amin attempts prove he is Shee`ah in his A`yaan al-Shee`ah.

[Qa'im]

The qira'a of Hamza is probably the one that is the most Shi`i in its transmission. It is sometimes referred to as "Qira'at Ahl al-Bayt" and it is a Kufan recitation. Humran b. A`yan (brother of Zurara, thiqa narrator of Shi`i ahadith) related it too.

`Ali b. Abi Talib عليه السلام > Abu al-Aswad al-Du'ali and Imam al-Baqir عليه السلام> Humran b. Ayun> Hamza b. Habib

Hamza b. Habib is listed as a companion of Ja`far as-Sadiq عليه السلام:

حمزة بن حبيب: أبو عمارة التيملي، مولاهم، المقرئ الكوفي

Hamza b. Habib: Abu `Ammara, at-Taymali, their client, the teacher of recitation, the Kufan.

Sulaym b. `Isa al-Hanafi and Khallad b. Khalid also related it, and they are mentioned by Tusi:

144 * سليم * بن عيسى الحنفي المقري مولاهم كوفى.

Sulaym b. `Isa al-Hanafi, the teacher of recitation, their client, Kufan

[ 270 ] 1 - خلاد بن خالد المقري. له كتاب، اخبرنا به عدة من اصحابنا، عن ابي المفضل، عن ابن بطة، عن احمد بن ابي عبد الله، عن ابيه واحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن ابي عمير وصفوان جميعا، عنه.

Khallad b. Khalid the teacher of recitation.  He has a book.  A number of our companions have reported it to us from Abu 'l-Fadl from Ibn Batta from Ahmad b. Abi `Abdillah from his father from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Ibn Abi `Umayr and Safwan all from him.

Full PDF of this qira'a can be found here: http://audio.islamwe...hp?page=rewayat

It also displays the reading differences from Hafs `an `Asim (e.g. arjulikum instead of arjulakum).

Edited by Qa'im, 30 August 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Ebn Hussein]

^Shi'ism does not believe in any other Qira'ah than the Hafs one, in fact Rafidah scholars quote left and right how the "infallibles" rejected multiple Qira'at.

Also we are not talking about a chain with people who had Tashayyu', because what Rafidah propagandists claim (are suggest to claim) is that there SHIA in the sense of Shia today/non-Sunnis in Aqeedah in the chain. This is a big, phat lie.

[Abdaal]

^^ You can exclude the Zaydis from it. They have an entire book attributed to Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as) on the subject of qiraat.

Also, the ironic part is Asim Bin Abi Nujud Al Kufi's Qirat suggest one most wash the feet in wudhu. Zaydis accept that, but 12er oppose while relying on that Qirat only.

[Qa'im]

Ebn Hussein, on 30 August 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

^Shi'ism does not believe in any other Qira'ah than the Hafs one, in fact Rafidah scholars quote left and right how the "infallibles" rejected multiple Qira'at.

There's multiple views. Some take opinion similar to the Sunnis', that there are 7 and all are divinely revealed and valid. The more popular view that there is only 1 legitimate qira'a. Some have applied the latter view to Hafs while others have said that the proper qira'a is with the Imam عليه السلام. Whichever view is taken, all qira'at are deemed to be equally valid during the ghayba.

Here is a narration where an unorthodox qira'a (there were many at the time) was taken to Imam as-Sadiq عليه السلام:

محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن محمّد بن يحيى ، عن محمّد بن الحسين ، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي هاشم ، عن سالم أبي سلمة قال : قرأ رجل على أبي عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) وأنا أستمع حروفاً من القرآن ليس على ما يقرأها الناس ، فقال أبو عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) : كفّ عن هذه القراءة ، اقرأ كما يقرأ الناس حتّى يقوم القائم ، فاذا قام القائم قرأ كتاب الله على حدّه وأخرج المصحف الذي كتبه علي ( عليه السلام ) ، الحديث.
Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Hashim from Salim b. Abi Salama.  
He said: A man recited to Abu `Abdillahعليه السلام  – and I was listening – some expressions (huruf) from the Qur’an that were not as what the people recite.  So Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: Desist from this recitation, recite it as the people recite it until the Qa’im rises.  So when the Qa’im rises he will recite the Book of Allah upon its extent and take out the mus`haf which `Ali عليه السلام wrote (Wasa’il al-Shi`a)

Quote

Also we are not talking about a chain with people who had Tashayyu', because what Rafidah propagandists claim (are suggest to claim) is that there SHIA in the sense of Shia today/non-Sunnis in Aqeedah in the chain. This is a big, phat lie.

So would you say Humran for example was not a Shi`i in `aqeedah?

[Ebn Hussein]

You infallible said to recite it as the people recite, he did not say that is is a valid recitation. Ironically the Hadith you've posted is a proof of the kufr of your sect, for it is the belief that the current Qur'an is MUHTARAM (respected) but not the ACTUAL Qur'an, hence your "infallible" house dwelling Imam told his followers that the REAL Qur'an is going to come.

Quote

all qira'at are deemed to be equally valid during the ghayba.

Of course, this is because Kuffar like: Kulayni, Majlisi, Al-Qummi, Abbas Al-Qummi, Al-Ayyashi etc. all believed in the distortion of the Qur'an (Qur'an itself and the Tafseer). Hence everything is valid, since your house dwelling "infallibles" advise their Rawafidh to STICK TO WHAT the OTHERS read (WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE) until the hidden Persian saviour (aka 3AJ) will pop out to bring the REAL Qur'an.

Name me one Marja' who states that acc. to Rafidism there is more than one Qira'ah.

And no, no one in the chain is a Rafidi, 12er Shi'ite (something Rafidah propagandists lately propagate).

[Qa'im]

I'm sorry, I thought we'd be able to have a respectful discussion. Have a good life everyone.

Edited by Qa'im, 30 August 2012 - 11:44 PM.

[Ebn Hussein]

bye KKSK, I mean KFC.

[MohammadMufti]

Quote

Here is a narration where an unorthodox qira'a (there were many at the time) was taken to Imam as-Sadiq عليه السلام:

محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن محمّد بن يحيى ، عن محمّد بن الحسين ، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي هاشم ، عن سالم أبي سلمة قال : قرأ رجل على أبي عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) وأنا أستمع حروفاً من القرآن ليس على ما يقرأها الناس ، فقال أبو عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) : كفّ عن هذه القراءة ، اقرأ كما يقرأ الناس حتّى يقوم القائم ، فاذا قام القائم قرأ كتاب الله على حدّه وأخرج المصحف الذي كتبه علي ( عليه السلام ) ، الحديث.
Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Hashim from Salim b. Abi Salama.  
He said: A man recited to Abu `Abdillahعليه السلام  – and I was listening – some expressions (huruf) from the Qur’an that were not as what the people recite.  So Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: Desist from this recitation, recite it as the people recite it until the Qa’im rises.  So when the Qa’im rises he will recite the Book of Allah upon its extent and take out the mus`haf which `Ali عليه السلام wrote (Wasa’il al-Shi`a)

This tradition suggests that the Aimah weren't aware of the differences in qira'a among the masses. The people behind it were silencing Imamis promoting different recitations while at the same time demonstrating an ignorance of the number of recitations of "the people"

Quote

(there were many at the time)

Only if we assume the tradition is a true account of the time of Jafar (rah) and not an example of later-day concoction. Interestingly, we don't have sources for the "many" variant qira'at or verses (with added words and the like) outside of later Imami lore where references to 'Ali (ra) crop up a lot more than in the Qur'an itself without these additions.

Edited by MohammadMufti, 31 August 2012 - 01:15 AM.

[swords_of_sunnah]

bump... for farid and nader

[Ebn Hussein]

Nader brother, you finally get home? You promised to deal with that.

[Nader Zaveri]

I thought I had answered the question already. Click here: http://islamic-forum...77