7 replies to this topic

[JayshAllah]

I am writing a refutation of the way the Shia use the 12 Caliphs Hadith .... please provide any relevant information here so that I can make use of it.  

I am not really interested in who are the 12 people but rather how to debate with the Shia on this point.  So please give good insights inshallah.

To sum up the Shia accusation:  they say that there are multiple sunni hadith which mention 12 Caliphs or even 12 Imams.  This, the Shia claims, is proof that we should believe in the 12 Infallible Imams of the Shia.  Why else, the Shia asks, would there be exactly 12 mentioned?  The Shia knows that it says "caliph" but he argues with various verses in the Quran saying that Imams are "caliphs."

Now what are the various ways we respond to this?

Edited by JayshAllah, 08 February 2006 - 02:35 PM.

[Abdaal]

I have answered this question before so i will just copy and paste it here again.

If you are from the Ahle Sunnah then you should clearly know that there is no such thing as 12 Imams. The reason is there are more than 12 Imams in the Ahlul Bayt (as). Imams such as Imam Hussan Al Massana bin Hassan (as), Imam Abdullah bin Hassan, Imam Zayd bin Ali (as), Imam Yahya bin Zayd (as), Imam Esa bin Zayd (as), Imam Muhammad bin Abdullah (as) alias Nafs az- Zakiyah, Imam Ibraheem bin Abdullah (as), Imam Ismael bin Jaffar (as) and many others. Plus the Imams the Shias have listed in thier lifetime never claimed that they so and so numbered imams. Lastly, the hadith talks about rulers over the Muslim world. As we know only 3 members of the Ahlul Bayt (as) can qualify for that list. Does the hadith say that all of the them will be infallible or rightly guided ? No ! All is says is 12 men from the Qurash will rule over you and during that time Islam will be powerful. Therefore, Islam's enemies such as the Jews, Christains, Romans, Persians, Indians etc will not be in power during that time. This also means that Muslims as Ummah will powerful and united during the rule of these Calipahs.
So far in the terms of rulers only 6 rulers are Righty Guided and not 12. These rulers
1 Syedna Abu Bakr (ra)
2 Syedna Umar (ra)
3 Syedna Uthman (ra)
4 Syedna Ali (ra)
5 Syedna Hassan (ra)

When Imam Mahdi appears he will be another righlty guided Calipah. Some scholar believe Syeda Umar Bin Abdul Aziz (ra) was also rightly guided. However, other scholars believe he was not a rightly guided because he wasn't appointed by the people. However, everyone equally agrees that Syeda Umar bin Abdul Aziz (ra) was a pious and a just ruler.

[JayshAllah]

I wonder if in the Arabic language, they have a concept of the word "dozen" ??  If so, the Prophet (s) could have been using the term loosely, as in there will be a dozen or so leaders under which Islaam will be dominant.

We know that the Prophet (s) uses such numbers like that.  For example, he said that there will be 73 sects, and only 1 of them will be rightly guided.  Today, there are more than 73 sects.  Likewise, the number of virgins you get in paradise (is it 73 again?)  ...so yes, it's just a vague number used to denote a relative ammount.  So a dozen would mean that it's just a handful and then Islaam would go downhill.

What you all think?

[Fatah-Momin]

http://www.kr-hcy.or...?showtopic=2452

[JayshAllah]

I love you, Brother Salafi Al-Farsi!  :flower:

[Musa]

As Salam Alukum

My Shaykh in Maliki Fiqh said...

> ""There will be twelve commanders (Amir)" ... "All of them will be
from Quraish."[1]  Sahih al-Bukhari 9:329 (Arabic-English version)

Some people go too deep in the issues of `aqida. One of such
issues  is the 12 Imams from the Family of the Prophet sallaAllahu `aleyhi wa
sallam.  Some sunnis from indo-pak area consider these 12 Imams as part of the
sunni  `aqida and these imams were spiritual leaders. Being North african i
never  heard of this. Is that part of `Aqida? No it is *not* part of our basic tenets of belief.

The authentic scholars were never able to agree as to what these hadithwhich speak of twelve a'immah (leaders / khalifahs) are actually referring to. If you do extensive research on the shuruh of hadith, you will come to this conclusion.

As for ourselves, we have an educated guess based upon `Asqalani's Sharh of these hadith in Sahih Bukhari. But, again this is not part of our tenets of belief.We will mention this educated guess (only to offer an alternative interpretation to what is commonly accepted by certain factions):

a) These hadith are to be understood along with the hadith which speak the appearance of a man from the Prophet's (May Allah bless him and give him peace) progeny (descendents of Hasan and Husayn) who will rectify the system of Islamic Rule in the world. This man is otherwise known as the (first) Mahdi.

b) Please note that there is general disagreement about the details
of this man as many of the hadith about the mahdi have not been authenticated.

c) This mahdi (if he actually appears; there are signs before and during his appearance) will lead a battle for the Muslims against a large "Roman Army" in the Arabian Peninsula. One third of the Muslim army will flee in terror. One third of the Muslim army willdie as martyrs, and one-third will be victorious.

d) As soon as the Roman army is defeated, the entire dominant system present in the world will collapse. The mahdi will seize this opportunity to bring most of the world under Islamic Rule.

e) The mahdi will establish a rightly-guided khalifate which will last for the duration of twelve successors.

f) Near the end of this twelve-successor rule (when the Muslims will have  become dominant in the world, will have put down their weapons, and will have become lax in practicing the din), the Dajjal will appear and ruin everything - and establish his Dajjali system in the entire world except for a few pockets here and there (e.g., Makkah, Madinah, Syria,etc.).There is difference of opinion about these points, and as for (f), most scholars of the past would not agree with it as there are some hadith which state that there is less than a year (e.g., seven months between the victory of the Muslim army over the Romans and the appearance of Dajjal).

Reference(s):

`Asqalani's Sharh of Bukahri Hadith #6682; chapter on ahkam, section
of istikhlaf.

Excerpt (towards the end of `Asqalani's Sharh of this hadith):

Abu l-Husayn al-Munadi commenting on this hadith in the chapter of the Mahdi says: The meaning of the hadith could be that there will be 12 khalifahs (one-after-the-other) after (and not counting)the Mahdi who will appear at the end of the world...

Ibn Munadi also says in the riwaya of Abu Salih from Ibn `Abbas, we have: The (first) mahdi will be have the name Muhammad ibn `Abudullah and he will be of medium stature (rab`ah) and have a shade of red (mushrabunbi l-humrah) [in his hair]. Allah will relieve this Ummah of all its distress at his hands. He will turn away with his justice all wronging.Then, after him twelve men will succeed the Khilafah [one-after-the-other].
Six of these will be from the descendents of Hasan ibn Fatimah, five of them will be from the descendents of Husayn ibn Fatimah, and one of them will be a non-descendent. Then, after this last one dies, the [good] situation [of the ummah] will become spoiled.[As a side note, most scholars say that the mahdi will be from the descendents of Hasan ibn Fatimah. As a side note, the fact that these twelve khalifahs will be of three different lineages shows that the system that the (first) mahdi establishes will not be a kingdom in which rule transfers from father to son.] Also we have a hadith from Ka`b al-Ahbar: There will be twelve mahdis, and then the breath (ruh) of Allah (i.e. `Isa ibn Maryam) will descend and kill the Dajjal. [End quote of Fath al-Bari, Sharh al-Bukhari by `Asqalani]