22 replies to this topic

[Zafaryab]

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Sahih Muslim

Chapter 28: SUCKLING OF A YOUNG (BOY)


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Book 008, Number 3424:
' A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be eupon him) and said: Messengerof Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She said: How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man 'Amr has made this addition in his narration that he participated in the Battle of Badr and in the narration of Ibn 'Umar (the words are): Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) laughed.


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Book 008, Number 3425:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (purbety) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.


Malik's Muwatta

Book 30, Number 30.2.12:
....."Sahla bint Suhayl who was the wife of Abu Hudhayfa, and one of the tribe of Amr ibn Luayy, came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said, 'Messenger of Allah! We think of Salim as a son and he comes in to see me while I am uncovered. We only have one room, so what do you think about the situation?' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Give him five drinks of your milk and he will be mahram by it.' She then saw him as a foster son. A'isha umm al-muminin took that as a precedent for whatever men she wanted to be able to come to see her. She ordered her sister, Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr as-Siddiq and the daughters of her brother to give milk to whichever men she wanted to be able to come in to see her. The rest of the wives of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, refused to let anyone come in to them by such nursing. They said, 'No! By Allah! We think that what the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered Sahla bint Suhayl to do was only an indulgence concerning the nursing of Salim alone. No! By Allah! No one will come in upon us by such nursing!'

"This is what the wives of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, thought about the suckling of an older person."


My Question: Is this allowed anymore??.. if it isn't.. why not?.. wassalaamun alaikum

[Fatah-Momin]

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Zafaryab

YOu know I have respect for you as you are among the very few shia who are consistent and also display respect for others.
You quote these hadith, are out of context, tell me where in hadith it has been stated that she suckled the man physicaly? She may have collected the milk in a container and handed it over to her husband who then gave it to the third person, thus making Na mehram, mehram.
Why is it when it come come to the companions you think of worse, but when it come to your scholars who have propogated deviant beliefs you are kind and forgiving, it makes one wonder..........

[Khalid-Bin-Waleed]

very well said fatah barakallah feekum

[Zafaryab]

Fatah-Momin, on Apr 20 2006, 02:06 PM, said:

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Wa 3alaikassalaam

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Zafaryab

YOu know I have respect for you as you are among the very few shia who are consistent and also display respect for others.

I try :)

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You quote these hadith, are out of context, tell me where in hadith it has been stated that she suckled the man physicaly? She may have collected the milk in a container and handed it over to her husband who then gave it to the third person, thus making Na mehram, mehram.

Its 'suckling/nursing'... not 'drinking'.. however.. is there any restrictions (huduud if one choose to follow this rule)?.. I know one of the ahadith says that it has to be done five times

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Why is it when it come come to the companions you think of worse, but when it come to your scholars who have propogated deviant beliefs you are kind and forgiving, it makes one wonder..........

.. makes one wonder if I am a hypocrite? :)

You know brother.. if there was something that my marja3 says which I strongly disagree with.. and the rest of the marajeh accept it to be true.. then I won't be 'kind and forgiving' towards them... wassalaamun alaikum

Edited by Zafaryab, 20 April 2006 - 07:27 PM.

[Fatah-Momin]

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Its 'suckling/nursing'...

Now a days mother use feeders [bottles] of milk to their childer, the word still used is suckling a child or as you put it nursing a child.

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not 'drinking'..

Already explained it above.

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however.. is there any restrictions (huduud if one choose to follow this rule)?.. I know one of the ahadith says that it has to be done five times

I too have heard the same  and if it is true. Then again the person must have taken five sips, if we think other wise it would mean that Nabi Allah[saw] did not know the law/rule [naouzobillah].

[Zafaryab]

Fatah-Momin, on Apr 20 2006, 02:31 PM, said:

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Wa 3alaikassalaam

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Now a days mother use feeders [bottles] of milk to their childer, the word still used is suckling a child or as you put it nursing a child.
Already explained it above.
I too have heard the same  and if it is true. Then again the person must have taken five sips, if we think other wise it would mean that Nabi Allah[saw] did not know the law/rule [naouzobillah].

Okay.. JazaakAllah.. may I also ask for any ruling on suckling older men in any of the madhabs?.. wassalaamun alaikum

[Fatah-Momin]

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This again is not a continious practise it was allowed for that particular occasion by Nabi Allah http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  himself, Sunnah is something which was Practised By NabI Allah [saw] on regular basis, or allowed by him http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  during his http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  life time. There are many incidents where he allowed something for one time and then prohibited it, this is not Sunnah.

Edited by Fatah-Momin, 20 April 2006 - 08:40 PM.

[Zafaryab]

Fatah-Momin, on Apr 20 2006, 03:23 PM, said:

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Wa 3alaikassalaam

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This again is not a continious practise it was allowed for that particular occasion by Nabi Allah http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  himself, Sunnah is something which was Practised By NabI Allah [saw] on regular basis, or allowed by him http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  during his http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  life time. There are many incidents where he allowed something for one time and then prohibited it, this is not Sunnah.

That was part of my first question.. why is it not allowed anymore??.. I didn't see any ahadith forbidding this practice in the chapter or in sahih bukhari.. wassalaamun alaikum

[Fatah-Momin]

Now read my post again^

[Zafaryab]

Fatah-Momin, on Apr 20 2006, 03:41 PM, said:

Now read my post again^

Ohho :).. sneaky.. but my question remains.. why can't you practice it now.. there isn't anything that forbids a person from going ahead with the practice.. you mentioned 'only that one time'.. what made you come up with that conclusion?.. halal cannot be made haram without divine approval.

Edited by Zafaryab, 20 April 2006 - 09:01 PM.

[Zafaryab]

Med, on Apr 20 2006, 04:06 PM, said:

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No-one can deny the authenticity of these reports but what is their context and application?

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Thanks for your good question, and we hope our efforts, which are purely done for Allah�s sake, yield their desired fruits and meet your expectations.

The case referred to in the hadith is a specific one, and it can�t be generalized. Scholars agree that the hadith itself is sound, but they reject `A�ishah�s interpretation of it. Furthermore, upon brief reflection one would realize that any claims that `A�ishah breast-fed men so that they could visit her were obviously calumnies. She did not have any children and, therefore, had no milk.

Responding to the question, Dr. Marawan Shahin, professor of Hadith and its sciences, Faculty of Usul Ad-Din (Theology), Al-Azhar University, states the following:
It should be noted that the story of breast-feeding Salim is well proven in many authentic narrations. The majority of Muslim scholars agreed that it is only a particular concession concerning the nursing of Salim alone. They do not consider it a general ruling that applies to the whole Ummah. Salim was an adopted son to Hudhayfah, who dealt with him as a son. When the verses regarding the prohibition of adoption were revealed, Sahla bint Suhayl (wife of Abu Hudhayfah) was ordered to give Salim five drinks of her milk and in this way he (Salim) would be considered her son by nursing.

Here, it should be noted that Salim did not suckle milk from her breast directly. The milk was taken from her and then given to him. The majority of the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Muslim scholars agreed that it is only a particular concession concerning the nursing of Salim alone.

The majority of the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) including all wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) rejected the opinion of `A�ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) and considered the issue as only a particular concession concerning the nursing of Salim alone. They do not consider it a general ruling that applies to the whole Ummah. As for the opinion of `A�ishah, she considered the matter as a general ruling that can be applied to other cases. But her opinion is rejected by the majority of Muslim scholars, including the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Also, it should be noted that `A�ishah did not breast-feed any grown men, nor did she give any of her milk to anyone, nor did any of the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). The hadith states, �She took that as a precedent for whatever men she wanted to be able to come to see her. She ordered her sister, Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr and the daughters of her brother to apply the same ruling.�

It is clear from the above-mentioned statement that she did not give her milk to anyone and it should be noted that she had no children [and, therefore, had no milk].
Having stated the above, we say that the hadith is authentic and the opinion of `A�ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) is rejected by the majority of the Muslim scholars, as the most correct view is that of the majority of Muslim scholars considering the issue as a particular concession to Salim alone.

Moreover, Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi, Imam of Calgary Mosque, Alberta, Canada, and former professor at King Saud University, Riyad, Saudi Arabia, adds:
It is an exceptional situation and exceptional solution for the problem mentioned in the hadith. This is the reason why our scholars are in unanimity not to apply it in general situations. The general rule is that nursing and breast-feeding affects the relation only when it is only done before [the one so fed] two years old.

For further interpretations regarding the hadith, you can refer to some commentaries on Al-Bukhari.

I trust this answers any doubts.

1. The milk was drank from a container.
2. None of the  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image028.gif  suckled a man.
3. This was an exceptional case.

Some may argue that why is it exceptional?

Proof of it being an exception rather than a rule is that the vast majority of  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image027.gif  and  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image028.gif did not practice on this.

There are other cases of exceptions to the rule - eg the witness of Sayyidina Hudhayfah  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image009.gif is the witness of 2 men, the leading of salah of Sayyidatuna Umm Waraqah radhiyallahu anha etc etc.

I didn't say Aisha was involved in it.. its Sahla bint Suhail.. I think the person writing the article didn't read the ahadith properly.

I know that the wives were disgusted by it..

Book 008, Number 3429:
Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), used to say that all wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) disclaimed the idea that one with this type of fosterage (having been suckled after the proper period) should come to them. and said to 'A'isha: By Allah, we do not find this but a sort of concession given by Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) only for Salim, and no one was ging to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.

... doesn't mean its haram.. right?.. like I said before.. no divine approval to make this haram.

[Fatah-Momin]

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Jazzakallah brother Med this is what common sense dictates too.

[Zafaryab]

Med, on Apr 20 2006, 05:08 PM, said:

1. Who said the Ummahaatul Mu'mineen were disgusted by this? It has been pointed out numerous times now that this was a SPECIAL CASE not a general rule. If a sinner like me can feel no disgust as this command and permission from the Holy Prophet  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  then how can any of  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image028.gif have any reservations about this?

I request you read through again the posts by various people and remember and understand that this was a SPECIAL CASE and that the milk was drunk from a container.

2. You ask regarding its hurmat. It has already been established that this was a special case, a special dispensation by Nubuwwat  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  for that particular Sahaabiyah and Sahaabi radhiyallahu anhuma.

3. The fuqaha are unanimous that should a child beyond the age of 2 and half years in hanafi madhab drink the milk of a woman then the relationship of fosterage is NOT established.

Please understand or try to understand what has been written for your benefit.

Let me rephrase my question.. what reason does the ulama have to discontinue this practice?.. I also gave you the hadith which quotes the wives stating that "... we do not subscribe to this view.".. that means.. they didn't like it

[Zafaryab]

Med, on Apr 20 2006, 05:30 PM, said:

1. I AGAIN quote myself for your benefit.

You ask:

what reason does the ulama have to discontinue this practice?..

There are a number of wrong assumptions in your very question.

1. Discontinue - for something to be DIScontinued it must have been continuous at one point. We have already established this was a special dispensation, a one-off, an exception to the general rule. Hence discontinue is the wrong word to use.

Yes.. but how did you conclude that it was only meant for this one occassion??

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2. Practice - for this to be a practice it should have been common amongst the community of Believers; for a thing to be a practice it must be widely acted upon or atleast acted upon by a significant minority. AGAIN it has already been established this was not widely practiced, it was an exception and hence this cannot be deemed a practice. Wrong use of the word.

My bad :).. this 'rule' made by the Prophet(saww)

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3. The ulama
The  majority of http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image027.gif and  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image028.gif did not act on this. The ulama as followers and students of the  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image027.gif / http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image028.gif  did idtibaa. The ulama did not discontinue anything because it was never continuous.

So no hadith... more assumption.. or.. dare I say.. ijtehaad :)

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You mention:

"we do not subscribe to this view.".. that means.. they didn't like it

wrong.
I also do not subscribe to the view that this is a general practice but who says my not subscribing to it means I dont like it?

ASTAGHIFIRULLAH. The Holy Prophet  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  permitted this for Sayyidatuna and Sayyidina radhiyallahu anhuma; how can I ever dislike it?
The saying that we dont subscribe to this view doesnt mean they didnt like it - ma'aadhALLAH. It means that they understood the act to be specific - there is no logical or linguistic connection between not subscribing and not liking.
I trust if you look calmly and clearly the issue will be clear.

The wives didn't like it.. they forbade anyone to come to their home with this intention.. I quoted the hadith.

My next Question: If the ulema forbid it based on the fact that the rest of the sahaba didn't follow it.. does this make the actions of the sahaba more worthy than sahih ahadith?

[Zafaryab]

Med, on Apr 20 2006, 06:21 PM, said:

Simple. The people who lived at that time viz the  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image027.gif  and  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image028.gif understood it to be for one occasion. They were there, we werent so it is only natural that they understood the correct meaning and we rely on that.

Okay.. they understood it to be one occassion because...??

You see.. no mention of the Prophet(saww) saying that its only one time you are allowed to do this

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I dont understand the point of all this questioning particularly when your questions have already been answered. What is your stance on this issue? If you are trying to prove that this was a general rule then prove it. Our proof that this was a one-off is the fact that it was only commanded by Nubuwwat  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif  once, and it was not adopted wholesale.

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It is for you to prove it is general. Alhamdulillah the Ulama of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah have proved it was specific.

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again you use rong words. Rule is when it is in common practice. The correct word is EXCEPTION. Is English your first language?

Lookie here brother :)

Book 008, Number 3427:
Umm Salama said to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her): A young boy who is at the threshold of puberty comes to you. I, however, do not like that he should come to me, whereupon 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: Don't you see in Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) a model for you? She also said: The wife of Abu Hudhaifa said: Messenger of Allah, Salim comes to me and now he is a (grown-up) person, and there is something that (rankles) in the mind of Abu Hudhaifa about him, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him (so that he may become your foster-child), and thus he may be able to come to you (freely).

This is a rule because... there is an action.. which makes something else happen.. its like saying.. if a man does nikah with a woman.. she becomes his wife... nikah is a rule (simile).. just like 'suckling an older person' was made a rule if a person is to be made mehram

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Alhamdulillah in the light of the ahadeeth we can see this was a one off. The hadeeth prove it happened once, it proves that the Wives and Sahaabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaan understood this to be a one-off.

So the Prophet(saww) has to do tell this to several people to have them follow him?.. once is not good enough?

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This means the  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image027.gif understood the meaning and context of the Words of Holy Prophet  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image008.gif . Please desist from fraudulent methods to malign the  http://islamic-forum...tyle_emoticons/default/image027.gif
Now kindly answer my question:

Sssss.. painful words :)

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What is the shi'a stance of this adult suckling and fosterage?

Can't do it.. more like.. with a na-mehram.. its no touchie

Edited by Zafaryab, 20 April 2006 - 11:35 PM.