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Age of Hz Aisha [ra] at time of marriage, 19 not 9: is this possible?


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#1 OFFLINE   Y. AH.

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 08:14 AM

It's widely admitted that Hz Aisha [ra] marriage to the  Prophet [saw] was consumed at the age of 9 (she was betrothed at the age of 6).  Critics of Islam often portray this union as a form of marital abuse [nau'z  billah]. They ignore - conveniently! the customs of that time and the fact  that Hz Aisha [ra] was bestowed with great qualities and was mature in spite  of her young age. Some Sunni scholars say that they have doubt about her  age at the time of her marriage but none of them has given an alternative age. However,  in the following article, the author argues that it was possible to determine  her age at time of her marriage based on some clues and a serious of  comparisons. He says based on his findings that Hz Aisha [ra]  was nineteen years old when she joined the  Holy Prophet [saw] as his wife in the year 2 A.H.


            Is it possible or is the author just influenced by other  beliefs like Ahmadiyya? Is it admissible by Sunni scholars?

The article I am talking about was published on this website:

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

Edited by Y. AH., 02 May 2008 - 10:41 AM.


#2 OFFLINE   Ali Muaawiah

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 09:11 AM

Aslam Alikum!

Brother I have not delved into the article u have uploaded but as far as the age of Hazrat Aisha is concerned, another well known islamic historican HAKEEM MEHMOOD AHMED ZAFAR SIALKOTI has argued extremely well in his book UMAHAAT UL MOMINEEN and concluded the same age i.e. 19years at the time of marriage... If anybody requires I will provide the reference of the book or if u ask me I will translate the concerned argument in english....

JazakAllah

Edited by Umer Bin Alas, 29 April 2008 - 03:22 PM.


#3 OFFLINE   Y. AH.

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 09:41 AM

View PostAli Mua'awiah, on Apr 29 2008, 12:11 PM, said:

Aslam Alikum!

Brother I have not delved into the article u have uploaded but as far as the age of Hazrat Aisha is concerned, another well known islamic historican HAKEEM MEHMOOD AHMED ZAFAR SIALKOTI has argued extremely well in his book UMAHAAT UL MOMINEEN and concluded the same age i.e. 19years at the time of marriage... If anybody requires I will provide the reference of the book or if u ask me I will translate the concerned argument in english....

JazakAllah

Salam Alaykoum,

Thank you very much for replying back. I was searching  on the net for more trustworthy sources. If you can translate the argument in English, then I would really appreciate it. Anti-islamic websites often focus on this point to slander the Prophet [saw] and accuse Muslims of promoting child abuse. I look forward to hearing from you and I'll try to put my hand on the book you've mentionned. Thank you again :).

JazaKALLAH

#4 OFFLINE   Ali Muaawiah

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 02:50 PM

View PostY. AH., on Apr 29 2008, 02:41 PM, said:

Salam Alaykoum,

Thank you very much for replying back. I was searching on the net for more trustworthy sources. If you can translate the argument in English, then I would really appreciate it. Anti-islamic websites often focus on this point to slander the Prophet [saw] and accuse Muslims of promoting child abuse. I look forward to hearing from you and I'll try to put my hand on the book you've mentionned. Thank you again :).

JazaKALLAH

Asalam Alikum!

Phew! Brother its a laborious task and am not very good at typing so I would upload the whole argument gradually...

"Syeda Ume Roman R.A (Mother of Hazrat Ayesha R.A) was first given in nikkah to Abd Allah Azdi. After his death she entered into nikkah with Siddique e Akbar Syedna Abu Bakar Siddique R.A. She had two offsprings from Syedna Abubakar R.A. i.e. Syedna Abd ArRehman bin Abi Bakar R.A and Syeda Ayesha R.A. Some people are of the view that Syeda Ayesha was born in the start of fourth year after Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (P.BU.H) was bestowed with prophethood and some report her birth in the fifth year of prophethood. Famous Reports supports the latter argument. Histrican of recent times have reported the same and I myself was of the same view but I was not satisfied rather disturbed with this so called fact that in such tender age Syeda was given in nikkah because if we accept the above two arguments, it concludes that Syeda was of 6 years at the time of nikkah and subsequently of 9 years at the time of rukhsati (I dont know the english of rukhsati, pardon me). But the strong facts and testimonies doesn't support either of the two above given arguments that Syeda was of six year at the time of nikkah. But strong reports support the fact that Syeda was of 17 years at the time of nikkah and I believe that reporter somehow forgot to mention the word "ASHRATA". What are those testimonies and and strong reports that support the view of 17 years, lets delve into them:

1- Reports maintain that step sister of of Syeda Ayesha i.e. Syeda Asma bint Abi Bakar R.A was 10 years elder than Syeda Ayesha R.A. (Akmaal Fi Isma ur Rijaal Page 558). Imam Zehbi R.T.A have lso narrated the same from Abdur Rahman bin ABi Aznao that Syeda Ayesha was ten years younger than Syeda Asma (Seer Ailaam Al Anba Book 2 Page 152). Same has been written by Hafiz Ibn e Abdul Bar in his book ALISTIAAB Book 2 PAGE 4 that Syeda Asma was ten year elder than Syeda AYesha. Historican have written that Syeda Asma was of 27 years at the time of Hijra. So Hafiz Ibn e Hajar have narrated from Abu Naeem in his book ALASABA dat "SHE (SYEDA ASMA) BORN 27 YEARS BEFORE HIJRAH" AlAsaba Book 4, Page 225. Alama Ibn e Aseer has also narreted in ASAD ALGHABA Book 5, Page 393 that Syeda Asma was born 27 before Hijrah. She accepted Islam after 17 people had accepted Islam and died in 73 Hijrah. Same has been written by Ibn e KASEER (AlBidaya Waniahaya Tazkara Abdullah bin Zubair 73 Hijrah)

Now if Syeda Asma was 27 at the time of Hijrah and Syeda Ayesha R.a was 10 years younger than her then its crystal cler that Syeda Ayesha was of 17 years of age at the time of Hijrah.... Wallah AALAM

This is one arguement provided by author, visibily very strong as it pertains to several most reliable sources. I will post the rest in my next sitting. Hope u will forgive for being lathargic...

JazakAllah

#5 OFFLINE   MalanG

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:27 AM

View PostY. AH., on Apr 29 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

It's widely admitted that Hz Aisha [ra] marriage to the Prophet [saw] was consumed at the age of 9 (she was betrothed at the age of 6). Critics of Islam often portray this union as a form of marital abuse [nau'z billah]. They ignore - conveniently! the customs of that time and the fact that Hz Aisha [ra] was bestowed with great qualities and was mature in spite of her young age.
I have a question that how is it possible hazrat ayesha was mature at the age of six but hazrat Ali a.s was kid even he was 9 or 11 ??

#6 OFFLINE   AbuYazid

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 10:41 AM

The authentic hadiths say aisha r.a was six at marriage  and moved in with prophet pbuh at the age of 9.
So i believe aisha r.a was 9 years old and there is nothing wrong with that. Infact it was a blessing that aisha r.a at such age could learn islam from the prophet pbuh himself,and after his death she was amongst the scholars.

#7 OFFLINE   swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:04 AM

View PostMalanG, on Jun 10 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

I have a question that how is it possible hazrat ayesha was mature at the age of six but hazrat Ali a.s was kid even he was 9 or 11 ??


firstly her age was 9 when the marriage was taken place.

Secondly the age of maturity for boys and girls differ. its not the same.

Allah is the MAULA of those who believe, whereas the disbelievers have no MAULA (Quran 47:11)

HASBUNALLAHU WA NEMAL WAKEEL, NEMAL MAULA WA NEMAN NASEER
Translation: "Allah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs (for us); what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord) and what an Excellent Helper!

#8 OFFLINE   swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:08 AM

for a detailed answer regarding this issue please download the artcile from the give link:

http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/local_links.php?linkid=879&catid=3

Allah is the MAULA of those who believe, whereas the disbelievers have no MAULA (Quran 47:11)

HASBUNALLAHU WA NEMAL WAKEEL, NEMAL MAULA WA NEMAN NASEER
Translation: "Allah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs (for us); what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord) and what an Excellent Helper!

#9 OFFLINE   MalanG

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:21 AM

View Postswords_of_sunnah, on Jun 10 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

firstly her age was 9 when the marriage was taken place.

Secondly the age of maturity for boys and girls differ. its not the same.
Main thing is nikkah not rukhsati...
And she had nikkah at age 6...

So now answer my question...

#10 OFFLINE   swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 12:09 PM

View PostMalanG, on Jun 10 2009, 04:21 PM, said:

Main thing is nikkah not rukhsati...
And she had nikkah at age 6...

So now answer my question...


so if just nikah happens BUT NOT RUKHSATI, FOR THAT A GIRL DOESNT NEEDS TO BE MATURE.

AND THE REASON PROPPHET(SAW) WAITED FOR 3 YEARS IS JUST BECAUSE FOR HER TO REACH MATURITY, OTHERWISE WHY WOULD HE HAVE WAITED FOR 3 YEARS.

SO STOP MAKING THESE FOOLISH ARGUMENTS.  AND READ THE BOOK WHICH I GAVE WHICH ANSWERS YOUR FOOLISH QUESTIONS.

SECONDLY THE REASON I SUGGEST U TO READ BOOK IS BECAUSE, YOU DONT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE BUT U ASK SILLY QUESTIONS.
Allah is the MAULA of those who believe, whereas the disbelievers have no MAULA (Quran 47:11)

HASBUNALLAHU WA NEMAL WAKEEL, NEMAL MAULA WA NEMAN NASEER
Translation: "Allah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs (for us); what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord) and what an Excellent Helper!

#11 OFFLINE   Wasil-ibn-ata

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:09 PM

ayehsa (ra) didnt marry rasool allah when she was 9 but she married him whne she was between 17-21

many sunnis are coming around and also many shia are realizing this truth : that the prophet was no paedophile (astaghfirollah)

قالت فمن صاحب الدين الحنيـف اجـب ؟     فقلت احمـد خيـر الســـادة الرســلِ

قالت فمن بعـده تصفــي الـولاء لــه ؟  قلتُ الوصي الذي اربـى عـلى زحــلِ



#12 OFFLINE   swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:22 PM

View PostWasil-ibn-ata, on Jun 11 2009, 01:09 AM, said:

ayehsa (ra) didnt marry rasool allah when she was 9 but she married him whne she was between 17-21

many sunnis are coming around and also many shia are realizing this truth : that the prophet was no paedophile (astaghfirollah)


if u read the artcile(for which i gave link) by ustad ayman he has proved what was the right age of bibi ayesha(ra).

And yes prophet(saw) was not Pedophile this allegation has been beautifullt refuted by brother ibn al hashmi in his book:

The Islamaphobes Glass House

Refuting the Claim that Prophet Muhammad was a Pedophile.

one needs to find the real truth should read that book.


Allah is the MAULA of those who believe, whereas the disbelievers have no MAULA (Quran 47:11)

HASBUNALLAHU WA NEMAL WAKEEL, NEMAL MAULA WA NEMAN NASEER
Translation: "Allah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs (for us); what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord) and what an Excellent Helper!

#13 OFFLINE   MalanG

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:52 AM

View Postswords_of_sunnah, on Jun 10 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

so if just nikah happens BUT NOT RUKHSATI, FOR THAT A GIRL DOESNT NEEDS TO BE MATURE.

AND THE REASON PROPPHET(SAW) WAITED FOR 3 YEARS IS JUST BECAUSE FOR HER TO REACH MATURITY, OTHERWISE WHY WOULD HE HAVE WAITED FOR 3 YEARS.

SO STOP MAKING THESE FOOLISH ARGUMENTS. AND READ THE BOOK WHICH I GAVE WHICH ANSWERS YOUR FOOLISH QUESTIONS.

SECONDLY THE REASON I SUGGEST U TO READ BOOK IS BECAUSE, YOU DONT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE BUT U ASK SILLY QUESTIONS.
Can you prvoe that Rasool Allah saww did nikkah with ayesha when she was not mature ?

And can you prove me from fiqah that you can do nikkah with a girl who is not mature ?

I already told you that in shariat main thing is nikkah not rukhsati...

Where its written that you can do nikkah with a kid but cant sleep with her until she mature...

And if you read another article then you will know that your mulla said her mother first check that she is mature then she did nikkah...

So who is right you or your mullah...

#14 OFFLINE   swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 08:43 AM

View PostMalanG, on Jun 12 2009, 11:52 AM, said:

Can you prvoe that Rasool Allah saww did nikkah with ayesha when she was not mature ?

And can you prove me from fiqah that you can do nikkah with a girl who is not mature ?

I already told you that in shariat main thing is nikkah not rukhsati...

Where its written that you can do nikkah with a kid but cant sleep with her until she mature...

And if you read another article then you will know that your mulla said her mother first check that she is mature then she did nikkah...

So who is right you or your mullah...

sweet heart the reason prophet(saw) waited for three years is itself a proof that she wasn't physically mature. How would be your QIYAS for that why prophet(saw) waited for 3 years any sensible answer?

lol the main thing the non muslims commment in this issue is that (prophet(saw) used to have sex with a child who was 6 years old)nauzbillahi minzalik, nakal kufr kufr nabashad.

so the main allegation is sexual practices with a child, nauzbillah. There is no problem if a person just a makes nikah with immature girl.

AND I CAN SINK YOU IN REFERENCES FOR THIS ISSUE BUT ONE SHOT TO END UP THIS PROPOGANDA IS THE FATWA OF KHOMENI WHO SAID THAT ONE CAN EVEN DO MUTA WITH A NEW BORN  BABY. SO WHAT IS WRONG FOR NIKAH?

Allah is the MAULA of those who believe, whereas the disbelievers have no MAULA (Quran 47:11)

HASBUNALLAHU WA NEMAL WAKEEL, NEMAL MAULA WA NEMAN NASEER
Translation: "Allah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs (for us); what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord) and what an Excellent Helper!

#15 OFFLINE   MalanG

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:19 PM

View Postswords_of_sunnah, on Jun 12 2009, 01:43 PM, said:

sweet heart the reason prophet(saw) waited for three years is itself a proof that she wasn't physically mature. How would be your QIYAS for that why prophet(saw) waited for 3 years any sensible answer?

lol the main thing the non muslims commment in this issue is that (prophet(saw) used to have sex with a child who was 6 years old)nauzbillahi minzalik, nakal kufr kufr nabashad.

so the main allegation is sexual practices with a child, nauzbillah. There is no problem if a person just a makes nikah with immature girl.

AND I CAN SINK YOU IN REFERENCES FOR THIS ISSUE BUT ONE SHOT TO END UP THIS PROPOGANDA IS THE FATWA OF KHOMENI WHO SAID THAT ONE CAN EVEN DO MUTA WITH A NEW BORN BABY. SO WHAT IS WRONG FOR NIKAH?
So do you think Rasool Allah saww follow fatwa of imam khumeni lol...

Come on kid be mature...

And if Rasool Allah saww just wait three years then why he didnt do nikkah after 3 years ?

And i asked you one question that is it allowed in your beleif that you can do nikkah with a girl who is not mature ?

#16 OFFLINE   Fatah-Momin

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 03:46 PM

Before the mariage with Ummal Momineen the prophet[saw] had a dream in which an angel had presented something to him[saw] wrapped in silk. The prophet[saw] enquiredfrom the angel what it was and he said it was his[saw] wife. When he[saw] removed the silken cover he[saw] saw Ummal Momineen Hz. Ayesha Siddika[ra] (Hakim: Mustadarak)

At time of Marraige Ummal Momineen[ra] was only nine yrs of age but she was already fully developed in both mind and body. Ummal Momineen her[ra] states that her dower was of the value of 500 dirhams.

After the marriage ceremony, Ummal Momineen[ra] stayed with her parents for three years of which two years and three months were spent in Makkah and nine months in Medina after the Hijra.

The persecution of the Muslims at the hand of pagan Makkans, forced Muslims to emmigration. According to Ummal Momineen[ra] When prophet[saw] decided to immigrate he use to visit the house of Ameerul momineen hz. Abu Bakr[ra] daily. The two blessed fugitives took the road to Medina and doging the their enemies, who were in hot persuit, they reached Medina on 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal.

After spending some time in Medina, the prophet despatched Hz. Zayd Bin Harith and his servent Abu Rafay to bring his[saw] family from Makkah. Ameerul Momineen[ra] did likewise and sent a person along with them. Abdullah the son of Ameerulmomineen escorted his mother and two sisters in their journey to Medina.
When small Caravan reached Medina, the Prophet[saw] was having his Masjid and some surrounding houses constructed. The Prophet[saw] two daughters Hz. Fatima[ra] and Hz. Umm Kulthum[ra] and his[saw] wife Ummal Momineen Hz. Sauda[ra] daughter of Zama'a took refuge in one of those houses. Ummal Momineen Hz. Saddika[ra] stayed with her mother in a locality occupied by Banu Harith bin Khazraj.
The climate in Medina did not suite the immigrants and many of them fell ill. Ammerul Momineen[ra] fell ill with fever and was nursed by his daughter. When ever she enquired about his health, he would reciet,

"Every family is being dispossessed And death is nearer to man than his shoelace"

Ummal Momineen Hz. Ayesha siddika[ra] told Holy Prophet[saw] about her father condition, he[saw] prayed for his recovery. As soon as father recover the daughter fell ill. It was so severe that the hair of her head fell out. When she fully recovered, Ameer ul momineen[ra] approached the Holy Prophet[saw] and suugest that he may call his[saw] wife to his[saw] home. The Holy Prophet[saw] said that he[saw] has no money to pay the dower. Ameerul Momineen offered to give him[saw] a loan, Holy Prophet[saw] accepted and sent it to Ummal Momineen (Ibn S'ad: Tabaqat p. 43)

The ladies of the ansaar came to the home of Ameerul Momineen[ra]. Hz. Umm Rooman[ra] bathed and dressed her daughter[ra] and then brought her[ra] before the ladies who said " Your comming has been a blessing and is auspicious" after which they adorned the bride[ra]. Shortly after the Holy Prophet[saw] came, there was nothing to offer except a bowl of milk, the holy Prophet[saw] took a sip and passed on the bowl to Ummal momineen[ra], she was too shy to drink, the ladies advised her not to refuse the gift of the Holy prophet[saw], accordingly she took the sip and put down the bowl. Holy Prophet[saw] asked her[ra] to pass it on to her friends, they said they were not thirsty. The Holy Prophet[saw] said " Do not utter falshood for every lie is recorded" (Ahmad Ibn Hanbal: Musnad)

The departure of the Bride from her[ra] parents[ra] house took place in Shawaal 1 A.H. It was a simple ceremony.

#17 OFFLINE   swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 05:34 PM

View PostMalanG, on Jun 12 2009, 07:19 PM, said:

So do you think Rasool Allah saww follow fatwa of imam khumeni lol...

Come on kid be mature...

And if Rasool Allah saww just wait three years then why he didnt do nikkah after 3 years ?

And i asked you one question that is it allowed in your beleif that you can do nikkah with a girl who is not mature ?


Islamic Law (Shariah) allows for a marriage contract (nikah) to be drafted years before

the marriage itself is actually enacted. In other words, the marriage contract is drawn up,

but the contract is not executed until a later date. So even though the marriage contract

can be drafted, the girl will not be handed over to the husband until many years

afterwards. In other words, a father can marry his immature daughter off to a man before

she comes of age, but the husband may not consummate the marriage until after she

attains maturity.

Under Islamic Law, there are certain shuroot an-nifaadh (conditions required for the

execution of the contract): for consummation of marriage, one of these conditions is that

both parties are mature enough for marriage. If this condition is not met, then the

marriage contract remains mauqoof (suspended) and has no actual practical effect, i.e. the

consummation of marriage is delayed until the girl becomes mature enough for that. In

the example of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Aisha (peace be upon her),

the marriage contract was signed when she was immature, but only took effect until after

she attained maturity. This is why Aisha (peace be upon her) remained in her fathers

house for three years after the marriage contract was drafted.

Shaykh Salih al-Munajjid said:

The fact that it is permissible to marry a young girl does not mean that it is

permissible to have intercourse with her; rather that should not be done until she

is able for it. For this reason, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah) delayed

the consummation of his marriage to AaishahAl-Dawoodi said: Aaishah

(may Allaah be pleased with her) had reached physical maturity (at the time when

her marriage was consummated). [Sharh Muslim, 9/206]




Under Islamic Law, there is a concept called khiyar al-buloogh, which means the option

of puberty. It means that while an immature daughters marriage can be arranged by an

elder, she has the right to annul the marriage at the age of puberty if she is not compatible

with her husband. Ustadh Ayman bin Khaled stated:

[According to] Tuhfat Al-Muhtaj and AlUmmthe father has the right to have

his daughterwho is pre-pubertalmarried without her permission. However, in

case this man is incompatible [with her], then she has the right to annul this

marriage. [The] Hanafi madhab, for example, says she has the choice [to annul

the marriage] when she reaches puberty [khiyar al-buloogh].

(Ustadh Ayman bin Khaled, Admin of
Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth)



NOW AS YOUR FOOLISH ARGUMENTS ARE ANSWERED, NOW WHAT IS YOUR OPINION REGARDING THE FATAWA OF KHOMENI





Allah is the MAULA of those who believe, whereas the disbelievers have no MAULA (Quran 47:11)

HASBUNALLAHU WA NEMAL WAKEEL, NEMAL MAULA WA NEMAN NASEER
Translation: "Allah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs (for us); what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord) and what an Excellent Helper!

#18 OFFLINE   MalanG

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:19 AM

[quote name='Fatah-Momin' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:46 PM' post='68879']

Kid can you quote this from your shaheen that she was 9 years old when she was married and after 3 years she had rukhsati ?

I told you before dont do copy paste just answer me in your own words...

#19 OFFLINE   MalanG

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:23 AM

[quote name='swords_of_sunnah' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:34 PM' post='68884']
Now your boss fatah said that she was 9 when had nikkah and when she was 12 then had rukhsati...

Its means at age of 9 she was not mature...

But you said at age of 9 she was mature and had rukhsati and Prophet saww slept with her...

So if i beleive on fatah its means she was still un mature girl...

so tell me who is right you or fatah kid ??

#20 OFFLINE   swords_of_sunnah

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 07:39 PM

View PostMalanG, on Jun 14 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

Now your boss fatah said that she was 9 when had nikkah and when she was 12 then had rukhsati...

Its means at age of 9 she was not mature...

But you said at age of 9 she was mature and had rukhsati and Prophet saww slept with her...

So if i beleive on fatah its means she was still un mature girl...

so tell me who is right you or fatah kid ??


she was 6 when nikah took place and 9 at rukhsati. ok

BUT YOU STILL DIDNT ANSWER ON THE FATAWA ON OUR AYATUS SHAYTAN KHOMENI? WHY RU RUNNING FROM THAT?

Allah is the MAULA of those who believe, whereas the disbelievers have no MAULA (Quran 47:11)

HASBUNALLAHU WA NEMAL WAKEEL, NEMAL MAULA WA NEMAN NASEER
Translation: "Allah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs (for us); what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord) and what an Excellent Helper!





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