74 replies to this topic

[Baap Ji]

some1, on Dec 22 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

Here is another proof of greatness of Sayyedina Sideq-e-Akbar(R.A) from shia sources:

1."Hazrat Muhammad SAW himself used to lead the prayers (Salah) until his illness remained minimal. When his SAW illness increased, he SAW ordered that Abu Bakar Siddique R.A should lead the prayer. Then Hazrat Abu Bakar Siddique R.A kept on leading the prayer for two days when Holy Prophet SAW was alive. Then he SAW passed away�."



Dara e Najafia, Page 225 (Sharh Nahjul Balagha)





2."Then Hazrat Ali Al Murtaza R.A stood up and after the preparation for prayer (Salah) went to mosque (Masjid). There he offered the prayer behind (In Immamat of) Abu Bakar Siddique R.A"



Ehtajaaj Tabrasi, Page 60, Line No 3



One of the authentic Tafsir of Shi'ites, Tafsir e Qumi, records this incident in the same words�.



Same has been written in the famous book of, Baqir Isfahaani, Miraat ul Uqool�.



Miraat ul Uqool, Page 388


3.Man la yahdruh Faqih volume 1,pg 250,hadith # 1100 states:
"Prophet(saw) said:Imam is the represntative of the nation,therefore you should make the most "Afzal"(the most righteuous) person your Imam".

Something similiar is repeated at hadith 1101.

[Courtesy:Bro Ali Muawiyah for translation work,May allah(swt) reward him]

Jhoot ye bhi sarasar jhoot hai. Hazrat Abu Bakr aur Umar abu huzaifa ke ghulam salim ke peeche namaz padha karte they aur ye bahut authentic hadith hai. Yakbayak is layaq kab se ho gaye ke ummat ko namaz padhane lage.

[some1]

So Ihtejaj tabrisi,tafsir qummi,dure najafia,mirat ul aqool and man la yahrudh faqih are all books of lairs? They are shia sources not sunni.

[1path]

some1, on Dec 24 2008, 02:07 AM, said:

So Ihtejaj tabrisi,tafsir qummi,dure najafia,mirat ul aqool and man la yahrudh faqih are all books of lairs? They are shia sources not sunni.

Hadith is useless to shias, if it doesn't agree with their beliefs they say the matn is not sahih, or they'll find a problem in any chain, i've never seen a shia bring a hadith where they all agreed on it's sahih status....and the majority (maybe even all) of the hadith which they all agree on, are sunni hadith!

Shiias beliefs evolve through time, their books and hadiths are useless to them. Compare a Shia today to a Shia scholar 1200 years ago, will they have the same beliefs? Their religion is still in the making, whilst ours was Perfected during the lifetime of the Prophet s.a.w.

[Y. AH.]

shaikh-ma, on Dec 6 2008, 03:55 PM, said:

I wish to know when is the word "انّ" used in arabic? Is it not when there is doubt from the other side? If this is  true, then I believe we must relook at the quran, about the 2 in the cave. If the case is that Abu Bakr had doubt about God's existence, even for a slight second, then we must abandon the idea that he is the rightful calipha of the Prophet (Pbuh).

إنّ doesn't have anything to do with doubt unless it comes with a specific verb زعم أنّ for instance meaning he claims that. Quite on the contrary إنّ is used for stressing at something:

إنّك لعلى صراط مستقيم
Indeed you are on the right path.

shaikh-ma, on Dec 6 2008, 04:50 PM, said:

Salam brother,
             The prophet doesnt speak but by the permission of Allah, and there is no doubt that Allah chooses the proper words in quran. The prophet could have used a word with a less verification, like "الله معنا". After studying arabic grammar, this shows a lack of belief in Abu Bakr at that moment.

This is assumption from your part, not grammatical rule.

[some1]

Lol True Bro 1 path.

Well here is another shia tafsir i.e Tafsir Hassan Askari with relation to Cave of Saur.

وروحه لروحك وقاءا ، وآمرك ( 6 ) أن تستصحب أبا بكر فانه إن ( 1 ) آنسك وساعدك ووازرك وثبت على مايعاهدك ويعاقدك ، كان في الجنة منرفقائك .

http://www.alquran-n...afsiraskari.htm

It says:
[Jibreel A.S said] Allah(swt) orders you to make Abu Bakr(R.A) as your companion in migration.If Abu Bakr sideeq (R.A) helped and coperated with all his passion and love then He will be your companion in heaven.(Translation May not be 100% correct)

So company of Sideeq-e-Akbar in this blessed journey is due to the order of Allah(swt).It clear that in such difficult time Allah(swt) chooses Sayyedina Abu Bakr (R.A) as Prophet(SAW)'s companion.

This is not just mentioned in Tafsir Hassan Askari.The same quote is mentioned by Mullah baqi Majilisi in Hiyat ul Quloob,Vol 2,pg506.

In Majlis ul Moumineen,pg 203:
The migration and Prophet(saw)'s accompying Abu Bakr(R.A) was not without the order of Allah(swt).

Wait a min a shia might try argue this would have been only true if He(R.a) has fulfilled these conditions.Since that didnot happend therefore this Basharat doesnot fit Sayyedina Abu Bakr(R.A)

Then this could be due to two reasons,either thier ignorance or thier denial of haq.


In the same tafsir after few pages it is mentioned:
"Then Prophet(saw) asked Abu Bakr sideek(R.A),are you happy that Kuffar look for you as they are looking for me to kill me? And it becomes knowed that you helped and remianed my companion in my Proclaimation of Tauheed and Nabuwat and due to this many kinds of trials and worrys you have to suffer?


"Sayyedina Abu Bakr Sideeq(R.A) replied,O Messenger of Allah(saw) I am that person,even if all the troubles and trails of world surround me till day of judgement,nor does death comes to free me from this suffereings but I remian in your love with you is better for me then I live a joyfull life like mighty kings but I am agaisnt you.May my family and children and everything be sacrified on you!!."

Subhanallah!! the love and compassion of Sideq-e-Akbar(R.A) is clear like blazing sun from this statment in Tafsir Hassan Askari.


ثم قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لابى بكر : أرضيت أن تكون معي يا أبابكر تطلب كما

اطلب ، وتعرف بأنك أنت الذي تحملني على ماأدعيه ، فتحمل عني أنواع العذاب ؟

قال أبوبكر : يا رسول الله أما أنا لو عشت عمر الدنيا أعذب في جميعها أشد

عذاب لا ينزل علي موت مريح ، ولا فرج متيح ( 3 ) وكان في ذلك محبتك لكان ذلك أحب

إلي من أن أتنعم فيها وأنا مالك لجميع ممالك ( 4 ) ملوكها في مخالفتك ، وهل أنا ( 5 )

ومالي وولدي إلا فداؤك

http://www.alquran-n...afsiraskari.htm

Courtesy,bro wasil ibn ata and effendi for thier contributions.

Attached Images

• 

Edited by some1, 23 December 2008 - 06:46 PM.

[Baap Ji]

1path, on Dec 23 2008, 08:43 PM, said:

Hadith is useless to shias, if it doesn't agree with their beliefs they say the matn is not sahih, or they'll find a problem in any chain, i've never seen a shia bring a hadith where they all agreed on it's sahih status....and the majority (maybe even all) of the hadith which they all agree on, are sunni hadith!

Shiias beliefs evolve through time, their books and hadiths are useless to them. Compare a Shia today to a Shia scholar 1200 years ago, will they have the same beliefs? Their religion is still in the making, whilst ours was Perfected during the lifetime of the Prophet s.a.w.

No, hadith is useless if it doesn't agree with Quran. We used to throw them on wall if against quran. We have the same belief since the time of Rasool Allah s.w.w. Your religion is still not perfected you are still not satisfied and everyday you are also changing in form of reforming like devbandi , barelvi, ahl-e-hadith, qadiyani, wahabi salafi ...etc.

If you call this as completion and then such tafraqa then Allah ki panah.

[Vsd]

Thanks for this thread Some1

It is really informative but I have some problems with the authenticity of traditions that I would locate Inshallah and I hope u 'd help me.

I would do research over it.

[some1]

Vsd, on Jan 25 2009, 07:56 PM, said:

Thanks for this thread Some1

It is really informative but I have some problems with the authenticity of traditions that I would locate Inshallah and I hope u 'd help me.

I would do research over it.

Anytime.Just a lil query is everything of Nahjul Balagha considered authentic? I am not talking about its explation but Sayings of Sayyedina Ali(R.a) himself.Beacuse I never saw anyone citing its saying to be weak or unauthentic.

[Vsd]

My answer to this is NO.

I was reading an article in which i saw that letter no 6 or 7 written to Muawiyah is Dhaeef fis Sanad.

It contains Majhool Ruwats.



So I personally say that "everything" is Nehjul Balagah is not authentic as per Sanad.

[some1]

Vsd, on Jan 25 2009, 09:08 PM, said:

My answer to this is NO.

I was reading an article in which i saw that letter no 6 or 7 written to Muawiyah is Dhaeef fis Sanad.

It contains Majhool Ruwats.



So I personally say that "everything" is Nehjul Balagah is not authentic as per Sanad.

Sigh..My dear friend this leaves us in a state of stalemate..I mean I have no knowledge of Rijal at all.And It seems there is no shia book that I quote for authenticity.

[Vsd]

some1, on Nov 27 2008, 12:42 PM, said:

In Surah 24:Nur Allah(swt) says:

22. Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve by oath against helping their kinsmen, those in want, and those who have left their homes in Allah's cause: let them forgive and overlook, do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.(Yusuf Ali).

http://sacred-texts....quran/02403.htm

22 And let not those who possess dignity and ease among you swear not to give to the near of kin and to the needy, and to fugitives for the cause of Allah. Let them forgive and show indulgence. Yearn ye not that Allah may forgive you ? Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.(Pickthall)

http://sacred-texts....024.htm#024_001

Shia tafisr Majma-ul-biyan says:

قيل إن قوله �و لا يأتل أولوا الفضل منكم� الآية نزلت في أبي بكر


This ayah was in favour of Sayyedina Abu Bakr siddeq(R.A)

http://www.holyquran...gi-bin/majma.pl

(Under the tafsir of surah Al nur ayah 22).

Now we must ponder why Allah(swt) calls a munafiq(nauzbillah) as per shia beliefs to be a dignified person.While in same surah other verses condenming munafiqs use very strict lanuage.

Brother Some1 now thats the full quote:



النزول: قيل إن قوله { ولا يأتل أولوا الفضل منكم } الآية نزلت في أبي بكر ومسطح بن أثاثة وكان ابن خالة أبي بكر وكان من المهاجرين ومن جملة البدريين وكان فقيراً وكان أبو بكر يجري عليه ويقوم بنفقته فلما خاض في الإفك قطعها وحلف أن لا ينفعه بنفع أبداً فلما نزلت الآية عاد أبو بكر إلى ما كان وقال والله إني لأحب أن يغفر الله لي والله لا أنزعها عنه أبداً عن ابن عباس وعائشة وابن زيد

Allama Tibirisi use to cite the Tafseer of Ahle Sunnah too to actually give more detail about Tafseer of the Ayats and then mostly he use to give his own view about that Ayat.

The alleged quote of yours is actually saying of Ibne Abbas(rz), Bibi Ayesha and Ibne Zayd that is taken from Ahle Sunnat source.

This same thing Allama Tusi(rh) writes:

وقال ابن عباس وعائشة وابن زيد: إن الآية نزلت فى أبي بكر، ومسطح بن أثاثة، وكان يجري عليه، ويقوم بنفقته، فقطعها وحلف ان لا ينفعه أبداً، لما كان منه من الدخول مع أصحاب الافك فى عائشة، فلما نزلت هذه الآية عاد أبو بكر له الى ما كان، وقال: والله اني لأحب ان يغفر الله لي، والله لا أنزعها عنه ابداً.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=4&tTafsirNo=39&tSoraNo=24&tAyahNo=22&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Now I would quote from Tafseer by Seyuti some narrations that actually proves that this is an Ahle Sunnat tafseer that Allama Tibirisi cited:


وأخرج ابن المنذر عن عائشة رضي الله عنها قالت: كان مسطح بن اثاثة ممن تولى كبره من أهل الإِفك، وكان قريباً لأبي بكر، وكان في عياله، فحلف أبو بكر رضي الله عنه أن لا ينيله خيراً أبداً، فأنزل الله { ولا يأتل أولوا الفضل منكم والسعة } قالت: فأعاده أبو بكر إلى عياله وقال: لا أحلف على يمين فأرى غيرها خيراً منها إلا تحللتها، وأتيت الذي هو خير.
وأخرج ابن جرير وابن مردويه عن ابن عباس في قوله { ولا يأتل أولوا الفضل منكم والسعة
.. } قال: كان ناس من أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قد رموا عائشة بالقبيح، وأفشوا ذلك، وتكلموا فيها، فأقسم ناس من أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم منهم أبو بكر، أن لا يتصدقوا على رجل تكلم بشيء من هذا ولا يصلوه قال: لا يقسم أولوا الفضل منكم والسعة أن يصلوا أرحامهم، وأن يعطوهم من أموالهم كالذي كانوا يفعلون قبل ذلك، فأمر الله أن يغفر لهم وأن يعفو عنهم.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?
tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=26&tSoraNo=24&tAyahNo=22&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Allama Tabari writes in His Tafseer:

حدثنـي يونس، قال: أخبرنا ابن وهب، قال: قال ابن زيد، فـي قوله: { وَلا يَأْتَلِ أُولُوا الفَضْلِ مِنْكُمْ وَالسَّعَةِ أنْ يُؤْتُوا أُولـي القُرْبَى } قال:
كان مِسْطَح ذا قرابة. { والَـمَساكِينَ } قال: كان مسكينا. { وَالـمُهاجِرِينَ فِـي سَبِـيـلِ اللّه } كان بدْريًّا.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=24&tAyahNo=22&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Now u failed to quote that Allama Tibrisi further cited too.

وقيل: نزلت في يتيم كان في حجر أبي بكر حلف لا ينفق عليه عن الحسن ومجاهد. وقيل: نزلت في جماعة من الصحابة أقسموا على أن لا يتصدقوا على رجل تكلَّم بشيء من الإفك ولا يواسوهم عن ابن عباس وغيره.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=4&tTafsirNo=3&tSoraNo=24&tAyahNo=22&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Now Ibne Abbas(rh) is himself a Thiqa and Jalil Qadr Sahabi of Rasool(saww) as per Shia but since the narrators are Sunni and mostly not reliable as per Shias therefore his alleged sayings is also doubtful.

So I hope that you would ponder over it.

[Vsd]

some1, on Nov 27 2008, 10:37 PM, said:

In the tafsir of Surah Taubah تفسير القمي الجزء1صفحة290 :
Ali Bin Ibrahim Qummi writes:

حدثنى ابى عن بعض رجاله رفعه إلى ابى عبدالله قال لما كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله في الغار قال لفلان كانى انظر إلى سفينة جعفر في اصحابه يقوم في البحر وانظر إلى الانصار محتسبين في افنيتهم فقال فلان وتراهم يارسول الله قال نعم قال فارنيهم فمسح على عينيه فرآهم فقال له رسول الله انت الصديق

http://www.alhikmeh....ome01/index.htm

From this tafsir we understand that the title"Sideeq" was given to Sayyedina Abu Bakr siddeq(R.A) by Prophet(saw) in cave of saur.

Joh Sideeq koh na maney woh zindeeq hai

Some 1 I am quite surprised not because you have cited very weak report but because your brethen like Efendi and Fatah that actually do lot of Jirah over most traditions that is in praise of AhleBayt(as) but they don't apply the same rule when it comes to Sheikheen. Lolz.

Anyways this tradition is Dhaeef Jadda because the chain goes as:

Ali ibne Ibrahim narrates from His father from some men Ta Akhir.

Now we don't know who are these men. Either they are thiqa or they are Dhaeef?

So thus there are majhool narrators in this tradition that makes this tradition as Dhaeef.

Take one tradition for example from your books:

Allama Haithmi narrates in his book:

http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=272&CID=131#s5

14302- عن رجل من بني أسد قال‏:‏ رأيت أبا بكر الصديق في غزوة ذات السلاسل، وكأن لحيته لهب العرفج على ناقة له أدماً أبيض نحيفاً‏.‏

رواه الطبراني ولم أعرف الرجل الذي من بني أسد، وبقية رجاله رجال الصحيح‏.‏

Alllama Haithmi writes that Tibrani narrated this tradition and I don't know about the person from Bani Asad . This is the same case that u have cited.

[some1]

Is it not the way of Tibrisi throughout the Majma ul biyan?

Edited by some1, 25 January 2009 - 06:01 PM.

[some1]

How about this in Nahjul Balagha?

Sermon 163:
You have seen as we have seen and you have heard as we have heard. You sat in the compan
of the Prophet of Allah as we did. (Abu Bakr) Ibn Abi Quhafah and (`Umar) ibn al-Khattab
were no more responsible for acting righteously than you, since you are nearer than both of
hem to the Prophet of Allah through kinship, and you also hold relationship to him by
marriage which they do not hold.

[Vsd]

Some1 Just a quick question before answering.

Is this Khutba authentic as per u?

[some1]

Vsd, on Jan 26 2009, 09:32 PM, said:

Some1 Just a quick question before answering.

Is this Khutba authentic as per u?

Whats the point of this question anyway? Is it unauthentic too now rofl?

[Vsd]

Don't laugh plz.

I am serious! Do u consider it as authentic or not?

YES or NO?

[some1]

Vsd, on Jan 27 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

Don't laugh plz.

I am serious! Do u consider it as authentic or not?

YES or NO?

Nopes.
Move on now.

[Vsd]

some1, on Jan 27 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

Nopes.
Move on now.

This Khutba is neither authentic as per my humble opinion when it comes to Sanad.

This Khutba is actually taken from Tareekh-e-Tibri.

Source: Tareekh Umum Wal mamlook, Vol no 3, pg no 376

http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m024/28/no2811.html

If u see the sanad it goes as:

(وأما الواقدي) فإنه زعم أن عبدالله بن محمد حدثه عن أبيه


So this is an establised fact that this Kutba is taken from Sunni sources.

Muhammad ibne Umar Al-Waqdi is not praised by Shia scholars.

Note: If anyone can give sayings of Shia scholars that praised Waqdi then please let us know.

While Abdullah ibne Muhammad and his father seems to be Majhool.

As for Tabari, he is being criticized by Allama Murtaza Askari lot of times in many books such as "Abdullah ibne Saba and other myths". Thus this chain is not reliable.

If anyone can proves the authenticity of the above tradition then he is most welcome.

[Vsd]

This Khutba for me is Dhaeef per Sanad.

As for Matn, I didn't find anything to be proud of. It actually reveals that Ali(as) inspite of his difference is urging that Uthman should be more serious in his leadership and this is actually the commentary of Allama Zeeshan Haider Jawwadi.

Ali(as) said this because people were very incensed by the actions of Uthman. Ali(as) therefore didn't help them in creating chaos but rather insisted Uthman to be serious in his leadership.