Farid

Shia Hadith Sciences 101

99 posts in this topic

[quote name='Jhangvi' timestamp='1313909255' post='97437']
Lecture: [b]Introduction to Shia Hadith Sciences and Rijaal[/b]
Speaker: Farid (islamic-forum.net Forum Member)
Venue: Beyluxe & Paltalk
Lecture Delivered on: August 20th, 2011
Media: Audio
Language: English
Duration: 35min 29sec

[mp3a]http://kr-hcy.com/forum/media/Shia_Hadith_Science_and_Rijaal_[Farid-www.islamic-forum.net].mp3[/mp3a]

[url="http://kr-hcy.com/forum/media/Shia_Hadith_Science_and_Rijaal_%5BFarid-www.islamic-forum.net%5D.mp3"]Download - Audio MP3 - 6.1 MB[/url][/quote]

Salam Alaikum,

JazakAllah Khair. Great lecture but where is the Question/Answer part?
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wow original american accent [img]http://islamic-forum.net/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img] baarakallahu feek.
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[quote name='Faylaq Omar' timestamp='1313974315' post='97496']
wow original american accent [img]http://islamic-forum.net/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img] baarakallahu feek.
[/quote]

:smile: also beautiful and humble voice like his posts
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[quote name='AbuMuslimKhorasani' timestamp='1313974020' post='97494']
Salam Alaikum,

JazakAllah Khair. Great lecture but where is the Question/Answer part?[/quote]
:smile:

The brother who recorded this lecture, have only provided the lecture part. As per him, he will send the Ques & Ans session soon.
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Assalam o alaikum wr wb

Indeed a very great lecture from Akhi Farid. May Allah enhance his knowledge. Ameen.
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Shias and hadeeth? Hah!

They just have a bunch of narrations they pick and choose from whatever suits the pre-determined opinion of the "sheikh". They have chains of narrators from "friends" (unnamed) and even "donkeys", but it doesnt matter of its convenient.

This shows the difference between Sunnis, the protectors and holders of Sunnah/hadeeth, and Shias. Its just baffling.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NbGpm_PzHI[/media]
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Bro, Hani, here are some of my thoughts on what you have included in your criticism of the hadith:

[quote]
Stuff about Al-Harith bin Al-Mugheera.[/quote]
You forgot to check out the most important early source, Rijal Al-Najashi. Unless you attempt to authenticate those narrations in Al-Kashshi, the statements from the [i]muta'akhireen[/i] will not be sufficient. The same applies to the rest of your criticisms on the narrators. Always check Al-Najashi since most [i]tawtheeqaat [/i]and [i]tadh'eefaat[/i] come from him.

[quote]Hmm.. ok I am rechecking Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from the earliersources, I previously said that he was Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubeid al-Yaqtini whois thiqah but from what I read in Rijal al-Tusi:

[5758] 10 - محمد بن عيسى بنعبيد اليقطيني، يونسي، ضعيف علي قول القميين. 131
He’s weak according to the people of Qum (that’s assuming he’sthe guy).

In al-Fehrest there is only one Muhammad ibn ‘Isa and he’sweak:

[611] 26 - محمد بن عيسى بنعبيد اليقطيني، ضعيف، استثناه
أبو جعفرمحمد بن علي بن بابويه عن رجال نوادر الحكمة، وقال:
لا أروي مايختص برواياته، وقيل: إنه كان يذهب مذهب الغلاة
Now let’s see Rijal al-Kashshi, Oh there he is narratingfrom Yunus:

237 - حدثني حمدويه،قال: حدثني محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن
مسمع كردينأبي سيار، قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: لعن الله بريدا ولعن
الله زرارة.
And here he is again:

297 - محمد بن مسعود،قال: حدثني جبريل بن أحمد، قال: حدثني
محمد بنعيسى، عن يونس، عن حماد الناب، قال: جلس أبو بصير على باب
أبي عبدالله عليه السلام ليطلب الاذن
Honestly can’t they just tell us which Muhammad ibn ‘Isathis is? Since I know that the guy before him is Yunus ibn ‘Abdul-Rahman:

401 - حدثني محمد بنقولويه، والحسين بن الحسن بن بندار القمي، قالا:
حدثنا سعدبن عبد الله، قال: حدثني محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد، عن يونس بن
عبدالرحمن، ان بعض أصحابنا سأله وأنا حاضر
435 - حدثني محمد بنمسعود، عن جبريل بن أحمد، عن محمد بن عيسى،
عن يونس،عن أبي الصباح، قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: يا أبا الصباح
هلكالمتريسون في أديانهم، منهم: زرارة، وبريد، ومحمد بن مسلم، وإسماعيل
الجعفيوذكر آخر لم أحفظه.
437 - جبريل بن أحمد،قال: حدثني محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد، عن
يونس بنعبد الرحمن، عن عمر بن أبان عن عبد الرحيم القصير، قال، قال
أبو عبدالله عليه السلام: أئت زرارة وبريدا، وقل لهما ما هذه البدعة اما علمتم أن رسول
479 - وحدثني محمد بنمسعود العياشي، قال: حدثنا جبريل بن أحمد
الفاريابي،قال: حدثني محمد بن عيسى العبيدي، عن يونس، قال: قلت لهشام
انهميزعمون أن أبا الحسن عليه السلام بعث إليك عبد الرحمن بن الحجاج يأمرك أن تسكت
522 - محمد بن مسعود،قال: حدثني جبريل بن أحمد، قال: حدثني
محمد بنعيسى بن عبيد، قال: حدثني يونس بن عبد الرحمن، عن رجل، قال،
قال أبوعبد الله عليه السلام: كان أبو الخطاب أحمق فكنت أحدثه فكان لا يحفظ، وكان يزيد
So this shows that Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubeid is the onewho narrates from Yunus ibn ‘Abdul-Rahman and he has a brother called Ja’afaribn ‘Isa.

And I finally reach his section:

في أبي جعفر محمدبن عيسى بن عبيد بن يقطين
I see that he is praised here.

I don’t find him in Ibn al-Ghadaeri.[/quote]
No conclusions about the status of Mohammed bin Eisa bin Ubaid yet? As you can see, this is one of the cases in which we find Al-Tusi contradicting Al-Najashi. Now, what you need to do is collect all the statements of the hadithists regarding him. In total, I believe there are around six statements regarding his reliability from the old scholars. You can go through each of the early books one by one, or you could just cheat by going through Mu'jam Rijal Al-Hadith. Then, at the end, try reconciling those opinions or make [i]tarjeeh[/i] based upon the evidence.

[quote]
Now ‘Ali bin Ibrahim, who is not mentioned in Rijal al-Tusi.

In al-Fehrest it only says that he has books and the Tariqof the Sheikh to him is Sahih.

In al-Najashi it says Thiqah:

[680]
علي بنإبراهيم بن هاشم
أبو الحسنالقمي، ثقة في الحديث، ثبت، معتمد، صحيح المذهب، سمع فأكثر
And is it me or does al-Kashshi not mention the guy? Ithought they’d have a big fat chapter for him.[/quote]
=p
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http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234997470-farids-audio-review-on-shia-hadith-science-rijal/page__pid__2322962#entry2322962

Check it out. Shiachat reaction to my audio lecture.

One of them is pretty upset and calls me a [i]mushrik[/i]. Maybe it is because I don't believe in [i]wilaya takweeniya[/i] like him.
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they are saying that you have a secret account there.
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http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234997470-farids-audio-review-on-shia-hadith-science-rijal/page__view__findpost__p__2324403

this post says it all........... Edited by zorro
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[quote name='Farid' timestamp='1326222472' post='108211']
No conclusions about the status of Mohammed bin Eisa bin Ubaid yet? As you can see, this is one of the cases in which we find Al-Tusi contradicting Al-Najashi. Now, what you need to do is collect all the statements of the hadithists regarding him. In total, I believe there are around six statements regarding his reliability from the old scholars. You can go through each of the early books one by one, or you could just cheat by going through Mu'jam Rijal Al-Hadith. Then, at the end, try reconciling those opinions or make [i]tarjeeh[/i] based upon the evidence.[/quote]
Ok so if I want to add what al-Najashi said, and it’s important:

محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد
بن يقطين بن موسى مولى أسد بن خزيمة، أبو جعفر، جليل في (من) أصحابنا،
ثقة، عين، كثير الرواية، حسن التصانيف، روى عن أبي جعفر الثاني عليه السلام
مكاتبة ومشافهة.
وذكر أبو جعفر بن بابويه، عن ابن الوليد أنه قال: ما تفرد به محمد بن عيسى
من كتب يونس وحديثه لا يعتمد عليه.
ورأيت أصحابنا ينكرون هذا القول، ويقولون: من مثل أبي جعفر محمد بن
عيسى. سكن بغداد.
قال أبو عمرو الكشي: نصر بن الصباح يقول إن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد بن
يقطين أصغر في السن أن يروي عن ابن محبوب.
قال أبو عمرو: قال القتيبي: كان الفضل بن شاذان رحمه الله يحب العبيدي و
يثني عليه ويمدحه ويميل إليه ويقول: ليس في أقرانه مثله. وبحسبك هذا الثناء من
الفضل رحمه الله.

So al-Najashi thinks he’s Thiqah.

Ibn Babawieh from ibn al-Waleed that he is not reliable in what he narrates from yunus (and if I remember the original Hadith we were talking about is from yunus)
And it seems that the strongest statement he uses to praise the guy is from al-Qutaybi from al-Fadl bin Shathan
In the tarjamah of Muhammad bin Ahmad bin yahya, al-Najashi says:

وقد أصاب شيخنا أبو جعفر محمد بن الحسن بن الوليد في ذلك
كله وتبعه أبو جعفر بن بابويه رحمه الله على ذلك إلا في محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد
فلا أدري ما رابه فيه، لأنه كان على ظاهر العدالة والثقة.

And here it seems that he clearly disagrees with ibn al-Walid and ibn Babaweih about the reliability of this man.
So far the idea I have is that this man may be narrating Mursal Hadiths from Yunus, that COULD be the reason why al-Tusi weakened him and specifically quoted the part about Nawadir al-Hikmah which is related to narrating from Yunus.
Ok then how about the statement of al-Qutaybi from al-Fadl bin Shazan?
In Rijal al-Tusi it says about him:

[6159] 2 - علي بن محمد القتيبي، تلميذ الفضل بن شاذان، نيسابوري، فاضل.

A student from al-Fadl bin Shazan but there is no Tawtheeq.
I didn’t come across anything about him in any other old Rijali book, so I searched Mu’ujam al-Rijal
And he comments on those who said “he is a Fadil” and it’s as I expected, this is no form of Tawtheeq:

الجواب: أن الفضل لا يعد مدحا في الراوي بما هو راو، وإنما هو مدح
للرجل في نفسه باعتبار اتصافه بالكمالات والعلوم، فما عن المدارك من أن علي
ابن محمد بن قتيبة غير موثق، ولا ممدوح مدحا يعتد به، هو الصحيح، والله العالم.

So the way I see it so far, Muhammad bin ‘Isa is not so strong and his narration from Yunus is rejected in specific so the Hadith is weak [b]:[/b]/
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These are good conclusions.

I agree that Al-Qutaibi is not a [i]thiqa[/i]. I agree that Mohammed bin Eisa is not reliable though Yunus bin Abdulrahman.

Please explain this though:

[quote][u]So far the idea I have is that this man may be narrating Mursal Hadiths from Yunus[/u], that COULD be the reason why al-Tusi weakened him and specifically quoted the part about Nawadir al-Hikmah which is related to narrating from Yunus.[/quote]
Also, please quote Al-Tusi in Al-Fihrist.
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