LOCKED Munazara: Farid vs Wasil (Walid)

412 posts in this topic

I am tired now as it's a bit late so post the hadiths and i will answer in the morning inshallah

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first hadith posted by farid :

[quote]1- From Uyoon Akhbar Al-Redha:

[b][size="3"][right]حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم عن [u]أبيه[/u] عن أبي الصلت عبد السلام بن صالح الهروي قال: سمعت الرضا عليه السلام يقول: والله ما منا إلا مقتول شهيد فقيل له: ومن يقتلك يا بن رسول الله؟ قال: شر خلق الله في زماني يقتلني بالسم ثم يدفنني في دار مضيقة وبلاد غربة ألا فمن زارني في غربتي كتب الله تعالى له أجر مائة ألف شهيد ومائة ألف صديق ومائة ألف حاج ومعتمر ومائة ألف مجاهد وحشر في زمرتنا وجعل في الدرجات العلى في الجنة رفيقنا[/right][/size][/b]
Rough translation: Mohammed bin Musa bin Al-Mutawakil from Ali bin Ibrahim bin Hashim from [b]his father[/b] from Abi Al-Salt Abdulsalam bin Salih Al-Harawi: I heard Al-Redha say, “Wallah, there is none among is but he is killed as a martyr.” I asked, “Who will kill you O’ son of the Prophet?” He said, “The worst of creation in my time will kill me with poison, then bury me in a forgotten and far land, but whosoever comes to visit me, Allah will write for him the credit of a hundred thousand martyrs, a hundred thousand [i]sideeq[/i], a hundred thousand pilgrim and [i]mu’tamir[/i], and a hundred thousand [i]mujahid[/i], and he will be with us in the highest part of heaven as a companion.”

^ In this hadith, we find Al-Redha confirming that he knows who is going to poison him. Due to this, we must accept that he committed suicide by drinking that poison. Plus, the credit that is given to those that visit his grave is way too high. This is one of the signs of forgery according to hadith scholars.[/quote]
he didn't say he know who he was as his statement is befitting of the killer of an imam , he must be the worst person of that time, and even if we suppose he knew him then the criminal must have done this with great care in way the imam(as) wouldn't doubt that his food is poisoned like bribing one of the imam's slaves etc (different scenarios). it's not like the killer came to the imam and said : here's some poisoned food so eat it!!! the imam didn't know when to die as this is the clear nass of quran.

next hadith:

[quote]2- From ِKamal Al-Deen:

[b][size="3"][right]حدثنا بذلك أحمد بن زياد بن جعفر الهمداني - رضى الله عنه - قال: حدثنا على بن إبراهيم، عن [u]أبيه[/u]، عن محمدبن أبي عمير، والحسن بن محبوب، عن على ابن رئاب وغيره، عن الصادق جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام. وتصديق ذلك(أن الآيات هم الحجج) من كتاب الله عزو وجل قول الله تعالى: " وجعلنا ابن مريم وامه آية " يعنى حجة، وقوله عزو جل لعزير حين أحياه الله من بعد أن أماته مائة سنة " فانظر إلى حمارك ولنجعلك آية للناس" يعنى حجة فجعله عزو جل حجة على الخلق وسماه آية[/right][/size][/b]
Rough translation: Ahmad bin Ziyad bin Ja’afar Al-Hamadani, from Ali bin Ibrahim from [b]his father[/b] from Mohammed bin Abi Umair and Al-Hasan bin Mahboub from Ali bin Ri’ab and others, from Al-Sadiq Ja’far bin Mohammed: And to prove that [i]ayaat[/i] are the [i]hujjah[/i] in the book of Allah, he says, “and we made the son of Mary and his mother a sign (23:50)” which means [i]hujjah[/i], and him saying to Uzair (Ezra) when He gave life to him after a hundred years after his death, “Look at your donkey, and we will make you a sign, (2:259)” which means a [i]hujjah[/i], so He made him a [i]hujjah[/i] upon all of the creation, and called him an [i]ayya[/i] (sign).

^ The term [i]hujjah[/i] is being used inappropriately to support Shia thought since the context has nothing to do with the usage of the term.[/quote]
i don't see the problem : being an ayat can mean being a hujja meaning hujja of allah upon his people like the ayat of Uzair that was hujja upon the creation of that time.

next hadith:

[quote]3- From Amali Al-Saduq:

[b][size="3"][right]حدثنا محمد بن احمد بن الوليد قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار عن [u]إبراهيم بن هاشم[/u] عن محمد بن أبي عمير عن زيد الشحام عن الصادق جعفر بن محمد عليه السلام قال: ما من عبد يقول: كل يوم سبع مرات أسأل الله الجنة وأعوذ بالله من النار إلا قالت النار يا رب أعذه مني[/right][/size][/b]
Rough translation: Mohammed bin Ahmad bin Al-Walid from Mohammed bin Hasan Al-Saffar from [b]Ibrahim bin Hashim[/b] from Mohammed bin Abi Umair from Zaid Al-Shahham from Al-Sadiq Ja’afar bin Mohammed, he said, “When a servant (of Allah) says, “I ask Allah heaven and to prevent me from hellfire,” seven times a day, hellfire, in response will say, “O’ Lord, prevent him from me.”

^ Hell speaks in the hadith above. This is similar to the hadith of Abu Huraira in which hell speaks. Shias don’t like this hadith. Maybe they should blame Ibrahim bin Hashim.[/quote]
we haven't got a problem with hell talking even though we don't believe it talks with words or languages but we have problem with belief that Allah puts his leg into it (astaghfirollah)

next hadith :

[quote]4- From Amali Al-Saduq:

[b][size="3"][right]حدثنا أحمد بن علي بن إبراهيم قال: حدثنا أبي عن [u]إبراهيم بن هاشم[/u] عن حماد بن عيسى عن الحسين بن المختار عن أبي بصير عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: درهم ربا أعظم عند الله من ثلاثين زنية كلها بذات محرم مثل خاله وعمه[/right][/size][/b]
Rough translation: Ahmad bin Ali bin Ibrahim from his father from [b]Ibrahim bin Hashim[/b] from Hammad bin Eisa from Al-Hussain bin Mukhtar from Abi Baseer from Abi Abdullah: Allah finds one [i]dirham[/i] of usury to be worse than thirty fornications with relatives, like uncles and aunts.

^ This is not logical. Blame Ibrahim bin Hashim.[/quote]
ibrahim ibn hashim didn't narrate this exclusively as it was narrated through different chains and here's one from wasa'il taken from al-kafi :

محمد بن يعقوب ، عن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : درهم ربا (1) أشد من سبعين زنية كلها بذات محرم .
anyway this hadith is fine and in line with sahih sunni hadiths so tell us what do you think about this sunni hadith from musnad ahmed ibn hanbal :

حَدَّثَنَا حُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ , حَدَّثَنَا جَرِيرٌ يَعْنِي ابْنَ حَازِمٍ , عَنْ أَيُّوبَ , عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ , عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ حَنْظَلَةَ غَسِيلِ الْمَلَائِكَةِ , قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " دِرْهَمٌ رِبًا يَأْكُلُهُ الرَّجُلُ وَهُوَ يَعْلَمُ , أَشَدُّ مِنْ سِتَّةٍ وَثَلَاثِينَ زَنْيَةً "

it says : one dirham of "ribaa" eaten by a man knowing is worse than 36 act of zina

but you said it it's not logical ! lol

next :

[quote]5- From Amali Al-Saduq:

[b][size="3"][right]حدثنا الحسين بن إبراهيم بن ناتانة قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم عن [u]أبيه[/u] عن الحسن بن محبوب عن هشام بن سالم عن عمارة بن موسى الساباطي عن أبي عبد الله الصادق عليه السلام قال: من صلى الصلوات المفروضات في أول وقتها فأقام حدودها رفعها الملك إلى السماء بيضاء نقية وهي تهتف به حفظك الله كما حفظتني واستودعك الله كما استودعتني ملكا كريما، ومن صلاها بعد وقتها من غير علة فلم يقم حدودها رفعها الملك سوداء مظلمة وهي تهتف به ضيعتني ضيعك الله كما ضيعتني ولا رعاك الله كما لم ترعني[/right][/size][/b]
Rough translation: Al-Hussain bin Ibrahim bin Natana said, Ali bin Ibrahim from [b]his father[/b] from Al-Hasan bin Mahboub from Hisham bin Salim from Ammara (Ammar) bin Musa Al-Sabaati: Al-Sadiq said: He who prays on time has upheld the prayers, upon that an angel lifts in into the sky, white and pure, it cries: “May Allah take care of you in the way you took care of me, and I leave you with Allah in the same way that you left me with this glorious angel”. And whosoever prayed after its time without a cause it will be lifted by a dark angel and it shall cry: “May Allah misguide you in the same way that you lost me, and may He leave you without care in the same way that you didn’t care for me.”

^ Prayers have the ability to speak. I can’t say I understand this. Let’s blame Ibrahim bin Hashim.[/quote]
I don't see a problem with it and there's sunni hadiths saying similar things.


[quote]6- From Khisal Al-Saduq:

[b][size="3"][right]حدثنا أحمد بن زياد بن جعفر الهمداني رضي الله عنه قال : حدثنا علي ابن إبراهيم بن هاشم ، عن [u]أبيه[/u] ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال : كان أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله اثني عشر ألفا ثمانية آلاف من المدينة ، وألفان من مكة ، وألفان من الطلقاء ، ولم ير فيهم قدري ولا مرجي ولا حروري ولا معتزلي ، ولا صحاب رأي ، كانوا يبكون الليل والنهار ويقولون : اقبض أرواحنا من قبل أن نأكل خبز الخمير[/right][/size][/b]
Rough translation: Ahmad bin Ziyad bin Ja’afar Al-Hamadani from Ali bin Ibrahim bin Hashim from [b]his father[/b] from Mohammed bin Abi Umair from Hisham bin Salim from Abi Abdullah (as), he said, “The companions of the Prophet (pbuh) were twelve thousand, eight thousand in Madinah, and two thousand in Makkah, and two thousand from the [i]tulaqa’a[/i], there were no [i]Qadaris [/i]among them, nor [i]Murji’a, [/i]nor [i]Huroori[/i], [i]nor Mu’tazili[/i], and no [i]sahib al-ra’ee[/i], and they used to cry night and day, and say, “Take our souls away before we eat yeasted bread.”

^ The companions of the Prophet (pbuh) are the best of creation. I appreciate the honesty of Ibrahim bin Hashim in this hadith. Inshallah the Shias that read this will agree with the content of it. It should be noted that yeasted bread is higher than the form of dry bread that the Sahaba were accustomed to, thus this shows their piety in their daily life. Mashallah. Great hadith.[/quote]
yes beautiful hadith and indeed 12000 sahabi(ra) were the real sahabah among about 120000 so only 10% of the companions are real companions but the rest are just normal people.


[quote]7- From Al-Amali:

[b][size="3"][right]حدثنى محمد بن على ماجيلويه رضى الله عنه قال حدثنى على بن ابراهيم عن [u]أبيه[/u] عن عبد الله بن ميمون عن ابى عبد الله عن ابيه عليهماالسلام قال اشترط رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله على جيران المسجد شهود الصلاه و قال لينتهين اقوام لا يشهدون الصلاه او لامرن موذنا يوذن ثم يقيم ثم آمر رجلا من اهل بيتى و هو على عليه السلام فليحرقن على اقوام بيوتهم بحزم من الحطب لانهم لاياتون الصلاه[/right][/size][/b]
Rough translation: Mohammed bin Ali Majlooyah from Ali bin Ibrahim from [b]his father[/b] from Abdullah bin Maymoon from Abi Abdullah from his father that the Prophet (pbuh) made a condition with his neighbours of the mosque to not miss prayer, and say, “Those that come to prayer shall stop doing so, or I shall sent a man to call to prayer, then start it, then I’ll order a man from my [i]ahlul bayt[/i], and he is Ali (as) to burn their houses because they don’t come to prayer.”

^ Mashallah, another authentic hadith, except for the fact that the Prophet (pbuh) never said that he will have Ali in charge of burning the houses. I accept this hadith, apart from that addition. I don’t think that Shias will like this. If not, then, blame Ibrahim bin Hashim.[/quote]
You know my view about this and it seems mursal to me and even if accept it then what's the problem ?

last hadith:

[quote]8- From Al-Amali:

[b][size="3"][right]أبى رحمه الله قال حدثنى على بن ابراهيم عن [u]أبيه[/u] عن عبد الله بن ميمون القداح عن ابى عبدالله عليه السلام عن آبائه عليهم السلام قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله من سلك طريقا يطلب فيه علما سلك الله به طريقا الى الجنه و ان الملائكه لتضع اجنحتها لطالب العلم رضى به و انه ليستغفر لطالب العلم من فى السماوات و من فى الارض حتى الحوت فى البحر و فضل العالم على العابد كفضل القمر على سائر النجوم ليله البدر و ان العلماء ورثه الانبياء و ان الانبياء لم يورثوا دينارا و لا درهما و لكن ورثوا العلم فمن اخذ منهم اخذ بحظ وافر[/right][/size][/b]
Rough translation: From my father from Ali bin Ibrahim from [b]his father[/b] from Abdullah bin Maymoon Al-Qaddah from Abi Abdullah (as) from his father, the Prophet (pbuh) said, “Whoever follows a path to seek knowledge, Allah will guide him a path to heaven. And the angels bring their wings down for the students of knowledge, and all in the heavens and earth ask forgiveness to the seekers of knowledge, even the whale in the sea, and the status of a knowledge of a scholar over that of a worshipper is like the status of the moon among the stars during the night of the full moon, and the scholars are the inheritors of the prophets, and the prophets did not leave a [i]dinar[/i] nor a [i]dirham[/i] to be inherited but they left knowledge, so whoever took from them, then he has taken well.”

^ Amazing hadith. I love it. One more hadith that really hurts. See?! It isn’t just Abu Bakr that said that prophets don’t leave an inheritance! This was also narrated by Ibrahim bin Hashim![/quote]
there's no problem with it because we believe that prophets true inheritance is the knowledge and this is the meaning of the hadith not that prophets don't leave other forms of inheritance and we know that sulaiman (as) inherited the kingdom of david (as) . this is eloquence that's all.

ok then thank you for your time and i had to stay awake by the way .

this is my last post so good luck and wish me good luck ya Faridov wassalam

ps: i am not sure still but i think you are correct about mohamed ibn amru even though i didn't see Al-Mizzi mentioning ma'n ibn issa as one of his students. it's not very clear who is this mohamed ibn amru is but maybe you are right but still people get the idea about narrations of hasan from abu hurairah. i think there's also a mistake in one narrator in the beginning of the debate (marwan or something ) anyway these are minor issues.

[size="4"]To the Admin : please ban me now as agreed as my job is done. Also now you can allow people to discuss the debate shukran[/size]

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1-from sahih muslim :

حدثني عبد الأعلى بن حماد حدثنا حماد بن سلمة عن إسحق بن عبد الله بن أبي طلحة عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي عمرة عن أبي هريرة عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فيما يحكي عن ربه عز وجل قال أذنب عبد ذنبا فقال اللهم اغفر لي ذنبي فقال تبارك وتعالى أذنب عبدي ذنبا فعلم أن له ربا يغفر الذنب ويأخذ بالذنب ثم عاد فأذنب فقال أي رب اغفر لي ذنبي فقال تبارك وتعالى عبدي أذنب ذنبا فعلم أن له ربا يغفر الذنب ويأخذ بالذنب ثم عاد فأذنب فقال أي رب اغفر لي ذنبي فقال تبارك وتعالى أذنب عبدي ذنبا فعلم أن له ربا يغفر الذنب ويأخذ بالذنب اعمل ما شئت فقد غفرت لك قال عبد الأعلى لا أدري أقال في الثالثة أو الرابعة اعمل ما شئت

abu hurairah from the messenger of allah (saww) from what he narrates about his god (allah azza wajal he means : no problem here just explaining that i just translated it literally ) he(azza wajal ) said : a slave (slave of allah : a man) committed a sin so so he said: oh allah forgive me ! so allah said : my slave committed a sin but he knew that he has a forgiving god . then the man committed a sin again and said the same thing and allah said the same thing (three consecutive times ) so allah said at the third : my slave committed a sin and he knew that he has a god that forgives sin .. DO what you want as i forgave you[/quote]

Ibrahim bin Hashim actually narrated something very similar.

Taken from Al-Tawheed by Al-Saduq:

[size=4]حدثنا أبي رحمه الله، قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن[/size][size=4] [/size][size=4]معاذ الجوهري[/size][size=4]، عن الصادق جعفر بن محمد، عن آبائه صلوات الله عليهم، عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم، عن جبرئيل عليه السلام، قال: قال الله جل جلاله: من أذنب ذنبا صغيرا أو كبيرا وهو لا يعلم أن لي أن أعذبه به أو أعفو عنه لا غفرت له ذلك الذنب أبدا، ومن أذنب ذنبا صغيرا كان أو كبيرا وهو يعلم أن لي أن أعذبه وأن أعفو عنه عفوت عنه.[/size]

[size=4] [/size]

[size=2]Al-Saduq from his father from Ali bin Ibrahim bin Hashim from his [b]father[/b] from Mohammed bin Abi Umair from Mu’ath Al-Jawhari from Al-Sadiq from his fathers from the Prophet (pbuh) from Jibreel from Allah: “Whoever sinned a small or a major sin, but doesn’t know that it is to me to punish or forgive him then I wouldn’t forgive that sin ever. [u]And whoever sinned a small or large sin but knew that it is to me to punish or forgive him, then I shall forgive him[/u].”[/size]

[size=2] [/size]

2-from bukhari :

حدثنا حبان بن موسى أخبرنا عبد الله أخبرنا معمر عن الزهري عن سعيد بن المسيب عن أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه قال شهدنا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خيبر فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لرجل ممن معه يدعي الإسلام هذا من أهل النار فلما حضر القتال قاتل الرجل من أشد القتال وكثرت به الجراح فأثبتته فجاء رجل من أصحاب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال يا رسول الله أرأيت الرجل الذي تحدثت أنه من أهل النار قد قاتل في سبيل الله من أشد القتال فكثرت به الجراح فقال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أما إنه من أهل النار فكاد بعض المسلمين يرتاب فبينما هو على ذلك إذ وجد الرجل ألم الجراح فأهوى بيده إلى كنانته فانتزع منها سهما فانتحر بها فاشتد رجال من المسلمين إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقالوا يا رسول الله صدق الله حديثك قد انتحر فلان فقتل نفسه فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يا بلال قم فأذن لا يدخل الجنة إلا مؤمن وإن الله ليؤيد هذا الدين بالرجل الفاجر

abu hurairah said that he winessed khaibar with rasool allah (oh for god's sake ! not again!) so he said about a man who claimed to be muslim : this is from the people of fire ..anyway the man fought like a hero until the muslims became doubtful (as to why rasool allah said he is in fire with all his courage and fighting )..then the man was injured a lot so he killed himself ... so it was proven that he is in fire basically

great indeed but unfortunately abu hurairah was not there during this incident which took place in the battle of "ohod" many years before khaibar and his name (the man who killed himself ) is called "qazman ibn alharth" and he killed himself in "ohod" not khaibar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

As I have mentioned previously, when a person says, “We won,” it doesn’t necessarily mean that he participated in the victory of his team. Similarly, Abu Huraira’s statement doesn’t need to be taken literally, according to Ibn Hajar in Fath Al-Bari.

Secondly, Sahl bin Sa’ad, this event did happen. Al-Bukhari says:

[b]حدثنا عبد الله بن مسلمة حدثنا ابن أبي حازم عن أبيه عن سهل قال[/b]

[b][size=2]التقى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم والمشركون في بعض مغازيه فاقتتلوا فمال كل قوم إلى عسكرهم وفي المسلمين رجل لا يدع من المشركين شاذة ولا فاذة إلا اتبعها فضربها بسيفه فقيل يا رسول الله ما أجزأ أحد ما أجزأ فلان فقال إنه[/size][/b][b] [/b][b][size=2]من أهل النار[/size][/b][b][size=2] فقالوا أينا من أهل الجنة إن كان هذا[/size][/b][b][size=2] [/size][/b][b][size=2]من أهل النار [/size][/b][b][size=2]فقال رجل من القوم لأتبعنه فإذا أسرع وأبطأ كنت معه حتى جرح فاستعجل الموت فوضع نصاب سيفه بالأرض وذبابه بين ثدييه ثم تحامل عليه فقتل نفسه فجاء الرجل إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال أشهد أنك رسول الله فقال وما ذاك فأخبره فقال إن الرجل ليعمل بعمل أهل الجنة فيما يبدو للناس وإنه لمن أهل النار ويعمل بعمل أهل النار فيما يبدو للناس وهو من أهل الجنة[/size][/b]

[b][size=2] [/size][/b]

It should be known that Sahl was very young at the time of Uhud, and it is unlikely that he saw this event during that time, which is why Al-Bukhari included this hadith in the chapter of The Battle of Khaibar. So, the sources that say that Qazman died in Uhud may have been mistaken, or perhaps these were two different events that happened to two different people even though they are similar in nature.

3-sahih muslim:

حدثنا قتيبة بن سعيد حدثنا ليث عن سعيد بن أبي سعيد عن سالم مولى النصريين قال سمعت أبا هريرة يقول سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول اللهم إنما محمد بشر يغضب كما يغضب البشر وإني قد اتخذت عندك عهدا لن تخلفنيه فأيما مؤمن آذيته أو سببته أو جلدته فاجعلها له كفارة وقربة تقربه بها إليك يوم القيامة

abu hurairah said : rasool allah (saww) said : oh allah i am nothing but a man who gets angry like men and i ask you to give me "3ahd"(promise ) .. that every believers that i harmed(!!!!!!!!!) or cursed or lashed then make it a redeemer for him ....

since when rasool allah used to harm believers and curse them ????[/quote]

The same hadith is narrated by Jabir, A’isha, Anas bin Malik, and Huthaifa, so this has nothing to do with Abu Huraira. I couldn’t frankly care less about your opinion.

[right][size=4] [/size][/right]

[size=4]قال مسلم: وحدثنا ابن نمير حدثنا أبي حدثنا الأعمش عن أبي سفيان عن [b][u]جابر[/u][/b] عن النبي [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] مثله إلا أن فيه: ((زكاة وأجراً)).[/size][size=4][/size]

[size=4] [/size]

[size=4]قال مسلم: حدثنا زهير بن حرب حدثنا جرير عن الأعمش عن أبي الضحى عن مسروق عن [b][u]عائشة[/u][/b][u] [/u]رضي الله عنها، قالت: دخل على رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] رجلان فكلماه بشيء لا أدري ما هو، فأغضباه، فلعنهما وسبّهما، فلما خرجا قلت: يا رسول الله، من أصاب من الخير شيئاً ما أصابه هذان، قال: ((وما ذاك؟)) قالت: قلت: لعنتهما وسببتهما، قال: ((أو ما علمت ما شارطت عليه ربي؟)) قلت: اللهم إنما أنا بشر فأي المسلمين لعنته أو سببته فاجعله له زكاة وأجراً)).[/size]

[size=4]قال مسلم: حدثني زهير بن حرب وأبو معن الرقاشي – واللفظ لزهير – قالا:حدثنا عمر بن يونس حدثنا عكرمة بن عمار حدثنا إسحاق بن أبي طلحة حدثني [b][u]أنس بن مالك[/u][/b] قال: كانت عند أم سليم يتيمة، وهي أم أنس، فرأى رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] اليتيمة، فقال: ((آنت هية؟ لقد كبرت، لا كبر سنك)) فرجعت اليتيمة إلى أم سليم تبكي فقالت أم سليم: ما لك يا بنية؟ قالت الجارية: دعا عليّ نبي الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] أن لا يكبر سني فالآن لا يكبر سني أبداً أو قالت: قرني، فخرجت أم سليم مستعجلة تلوث خمارها حتى لقيت رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] فقال لها رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4]: ((ما لك يا أم سليم؟)) فقالت: يا نبي الله، أدعوت على يتيمتي؟ قال: ((وما ذاك يا أم سليم؟)) قالت: زعمت أنك دعوت أن لا يكبر سنها ولا يكبر قرنها، قال: فضحك رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4]. ثم قال: ((يا أم سليم، أما تعلمين أن شرطي على ربي، أني أشترطت على ربي فقلت: إنما أنا بشر، أرضى كما يرضى البشر، وأغضب كما يغضب البشر، فأيما أحد دعوت عليه من أمتي بدعوة ليس لها بأهل أن تجعلها له طهوراً وزكاةً وقربةً يقربه الله بها منه يوم القيامة)).[/size][size=4][/size]

[size=4] [/size]

[size=4]قال أبو داود: حدثنا أحمد بن يونس: حدثنا زائدة بن قدامة الثقفي: حدثنا عمر بن قيس الماصر عن عمرو بن أبي قرة قال: كان[u] [b]حذيفة[/b][/u] بالمدائن فكان يذكر أشياء قالها رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] لأناس من أصحابه في الغضب، فينطلق ناس ممن سمع ذلك من حذيفة فيأتون سلمان ويذكرون له قول حذيفة، فيقول سلمان: حذيفة أعلم بما يقول، فيرجعون إلى حذيفة فيقولون له: قد ذكرنا قولك لسلمان فما صدّقك ولا كذّبك، فأتى حذيفة سلمان وهو في مبقلة فقال: يا سلمان ! ما يمنعك أن تصدقني بما سمعت من رسول الله [/size]r[size=4]؟ فقال سلمان: إن رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] كان يغضب فيقول في الغضب لناس من أصحابه ويرضى فيقول في الرضا لناس من أصحابه: أما تنتهي حتى نورث رجالاً حب رجال، ورجال بغض رجال وحتى توقع خلافاً وفرقة، ولقد علمت أن رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] خطب فقال: ((أيما رجل من أمتي سببته سبة أو لعنته لعنة في غضبي فإنما أنا من ولد آدم أغضب كما يغضبون وإنما بعثني رحمة للعالمين فاجعلها عليهم صلاة يوم القيامة)). والله ! لتنتهين أو لأكتبن إلى عمر فتحمل عليه برجال فكفر يمينه ولم يكتب إلى عمر وكفر قبل الحنث.[/size][size=4][/size]

[size=4] [/size]

4-sahih bukhari :

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ ، أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ ، عَنْ هَمَّامٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ، قَالَ : قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " تَحَاجَّتِ الْجَنَّةُ وَالنَّارُ ، فَقَالَتِ النَّارُ : أُوثِرْتُ بِالْمُتَكَبِّرِينَ وَالْمُتَجَبِّرِينَ ، وَقَالَتِ الْجَنَّةُ : مَا لِي لَا يَدْخُلُنِي إِلَّا ضُعَفَاءُ النَّاسِ وَسَقَطُهُمْ ، قَالَ اللَّهُ تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى لِلْجَنَّةِ : أَنْتِ رَحْمَتِي ، أَرْحَمُ بِكِ مَنْ أَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِي ، وَقَالَ لِلنَّارِ : إِنَّمَا أَنْتِ عَذَابِي ، أُعَذِّبُ بِكِ مَنْ أَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِي ، وَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدَةٍ مِنْهُمَا مِلْؤُهَا ، فَأَمَّا النَّارُ فَلَا تَمْتَلِئُ حَتَّى يَضَعَ رِجْلَهُ ، فَتَقُولُ : قَطْ قَطْ ، فَهُنَالِكَ تَمْتَلِئُ وَيُزْوَى بَعْضُهَا إِلَى بَعْضٍ ، وَلَا يَظْلِمُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ مِنْ خَلْقِهِ أَحَدًا ، وَأَمَّا الْجَنَّةُ ، فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ يُنْشِئُ لَهَا خَلْقًا " .

basically the famous hadith where abu hurairah narrated from rasool allah that he said : ...talk about hell and paradise and how Allah had to put his Leg (astaghfirollah) in hell for it to stop asking for more (kuffar and sinners) to burn and shout : enough enough ...

Allah has a leg astaghfirollah[/quote][/right]
[right] [/right]
[right]Same hadith is narrated by Anas bin Malik and by Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudari.[/right]
[size=4]قال البخاري: حدثنا آدم: حدثنا شيبان: حدثنا قتادة عن [b][u]أنس بن مالك[/u][/b]: قال النبي [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4]: ((لا تزال جهنم تقول: هل من مزيد؟ حتى يضع رب العزة فيها قدمه فتقول: قط قط وعزتك، ويزوى بعضها عن بعض)).[/size][size=4][/size]

[size=4] [/size]

[size=4]قال الإمام أحمد: حدثنا حسن وروح قالا حدثنا حماد بن سلمة عن عطاء بن السائب عن عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن عتيبة عن [b][u]أبي سعيد الخدري[/u][/b] أن رسول الله [/size][size=4]r[/size][size=4] قال: ((افتخرت الجنة والنار فقالت النار يا رب يدخلني الجبابرة والمتكبرون والملوك والأشراف، وقالت الجنة أي رب يدخلني الضعفاء والفقراء والمساكين، فيقول الله تبارك وتعالى للنار أنت عذابي أصيب بك من أشاء، وقال للجنة أنت رحمتي وسعت كل شيء ولكل واحدة منكما ملؤها فيلقي في النار أهلها فتقول هل من مزيد قال ويلقي فيها وتقول هل من مزيد ويلقى فيها وتقول هل من مزيد حتى يأتيها تبارك وتعالى فيضع قدمه عليها فتزوى فتقول قدى قدى وأما الجنة فيبقى فيها أهلها ما شاء الله أن يبقى فينشىء الله لها خلقا ما يشاء)).[/size][size=4][/size]

[right][size=4] [/size][/right]
[right]I'll respond to the next four hadiths later tonight inshallah.

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5-sahih bukhari:

حدثني محمود حدثنا عبد الرزاق أخبرنا معمر عن ابن طاوس عن أبيه عن أبي هريرة قال قال سليمان بن داود عليهما السلام لأطوفن الليلة بمائة امرأة تلد كل امرأة غلاما يقاتل في سبيل الله فقال له الملك قل إن شاء الله فلم يقل [ ص: 2008 ] ونسي فأطاف بهن ولم تلد منهن إلا امرأة نصف إنسان قال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لو قال إن شاء الله لم يحنث وكان أرجى لحاجته

abu hurairah said that sulaiman (as) basically swore to sleep with 100 women in one night and to get from every woman a child but didn't say inshallah so only woman gave birth to Half a person(baby) then abu hurairah said : rasool allah said( which implies that he heard the first part also from the prophet (saww) : if he (sulaiman) said inshallah he would have fullfilled his aim.

100 women in one night !! yeah![/quote][/left][left]
[/left][left] [/left][left]
[/left][left]Not easy, but it is possible. Plus, he is a prophet, who had the ability to talk to animals and he had control of the wind and [i]jinn[/i]. If those are acceptable to you, then why not this?[/left][left]
[/left][left] [/left][left]
[/left][left]Most importantly, Anas bin Malik in Saheeh Al-Bukhari narrated something similar about the Prophet (pbuh) in general: [/left][left]
[b]حدثنا محمد بن بشار قال حدثنا معاذ بن هشام قال حدثني أبي عن قتادة قال حدثنا أنس بن مالك قال كان النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يدور على نسائه في الساعة الواحدة من الليل والنهار وهن إحدى عشرة قال قلت لأنس أوكان يطيقه قال كنا نتحدث أنه أعطي[/b][b] [/b][b][size="2"]قوة ثلاثين [/size][/b]

[/left][left]Roug translation: Anas said: “The Prophet (pbuh) used to go through all him wives during an hour of night and day and they were eleven women.” I (Qatada) asked: “He could handle it?” Anas replied, “We used to say that he was given the strength of thirty men.” [/left][left]
[/left][left] [/left][left]
6-sahih bukhari :

حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ ، حَدَّثَنَا وُهَيْبٌ ، عَنْ خَالِدٍ ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، قَالَ : " فُقِدَتْ أُمَّةٌ مِنْ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ لَا يُدْرَى مَا فَعَلَتْ وَإِنِّي لَا أُرَاهَا إِلَّا الْفَارَ إِذَا وُضِعَ لَهَا أَلْبَانُ الْإِبِلِ لَمْ تَشْرَبْ ، وَإِذَا وُضِعَ لَهَا أَلْبَانُ الشَّاءِ شَرِبَتْ فَحَدَّثْتُ كَعْبًا ، فَقَالَ : أَنْتَ سَمِعْتَ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُهُ ؟ ، قُلْتُ : نَعَمْ ، قَالَ : لِي مِرَارًا ، فَقُلْتُ : أَفَأَقْرَأُ التَّوْرَاةَ " .

basically abu hurairah narrated from rasool allah (saww) that the lost tribe (nation ) from bani isra'eel were transformed to mice . but the way he said rasool allah said it is great \: he said rasool allah (saww) said: a nation(tribe ) from bani isra'eel was lost and nobody knows what they did . as for me then i don't believe that they are anything but mice (just an opinion.!!!! !)(hasha rasool allah (saww) [u]...anyway after this hadith abu hurairah met kaab again (oh my god !!!) and spoke about torah.!!!!!!!!!!!![/u]

they were punished by becoming mice ??!!!! we know in quran there's only monkeys and pigs !!! never mind[/quote][/left][left]
[/left][left] [/left][left]
[/left][left]...and yet, early Shia scholars believed that there were more transformations. Al-Tusi for example, in the chapter of [i]Sayd[/i] in Tahtheebul Ahkaam says that people were transformed into rabbits. See hadith #160. [/left][left]
[/left][left] [/left][left]
7-from sahih muslim :

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ حَاتِمِ بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ سَعِيدٍ ، حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ كَيْسَانَ ، عَنْ أَبِي حَازِمٍ الأَشْجَعِيِّ ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعَمِّهِ : " قُلْ : لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ، أَشْهَدُ لَكَ بِهَا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ " ، قَالَ : لَوْلَا أَنْ تُعَيِّرَنِي قُرَيْشٌ ، يَقُولُونَ : إِنَّمَا حَمَلَهُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ الْجَزَعُ لَأَقْرَرْتُ بِهَا عَيْنَكَ ، فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ إِنَّكَ لا تَهْدِي مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ سورة القصص آية 56 .

abu hurairah said rasool allah(saww) told his dying uncle abu taleb (ra) say la ilaha illa allah .... so he said : if it's not for the fear that Quraish would mock me and say fear of death made him say it then i would have thrilled your heart with it( translation of meaning niot literally)

abu hurairah was not there at that time as this was many many years before his islam and if we accept mursal al-sahabi then in case of abu hurairah this is very slippery ground as he doesn't do irsaaal from thiqat all the time as we proved so please read the debate .[/quote][/left][left]
[/left][left]This hadith too has nothing to do with Abu Huraira. Abu Talib being in hell is a famous Sunni opinion and it is based on the opinions of several companions of the Prophet (pbuh). [/left][left]
[/left][left]Similar narrations like these, or general narrations that Abu Talib is in hell have been narrated by the following Sahabis:[/left][left]
[/left][left]Al-Musayyab bin Huzn – (Saheeh Al-Bukhari - 4772) Dar Al-Salam: Second edition.[/left][left]
[/left][left]Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudari – (Saheeh Muslim - 512) Dar Al-Ma’rifa: Second edition.[/left][left]
[/left][left]Al-Abbas bin Abdul Mutalib – (Saheeh Muslim - 510) Dar Al-Ma’rifa: Second edition.[/left][left]
[/left][left]Ibn Abbas – (Saheeh Muslim - 514) Dar Al-Ma’rifa: Second edition.[/left][left]
[/left][left]Furthermore, Walid has failed to prove that Abu Huraira took any prophetic hadiths from anyone except for [i]thiqaat[/i]. [/left][left]
[/left][left] [/left][left]
[/left][left][quote] 8-sahih bukhari :

حدثنا عمر بن حفص حدثنا أبي حدثنا الأعمش حدثنا أبو صالح قال حدثني أبو هريرة رضي الله عنه قال قال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أفضل الصدقة ما ترك غنى واليد العليا خير من اليد السفلى وابدأ بمن تعول تقول المرأة إما أن تطعمني وإما أن تطلقني ويقول العبد أطعمني واستعملني ويقول الابن أطعمني إلى من تدعني فقالوا يا أبا هريرة سمعت هذا من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال لا هذا من كيس أبي هريرة

abu hurairah said THE PROPHET (SAWW) SAID (WATCH CAREFULLY): the best alm (sadaqah)......the woman says to her husband : feed me or divorce me and the slaves says : feed me and use me and the son says : feed me to whom you will leave me so they (people listening to abu hurairah ) asked : oh abu hurairah did you hear this from rasool allah ??so he said : NO this is from the purse of abu hurairah (charming )

even if we suppose that he is talking about part of what he said that it's from him ! then why did he wait for people to ask him about it . why didn't he differentiate between his talk and hadith rasool allah (saww) . the least that can be said is that he takes the hadith of rasool allah lightly in my opnion wallahu alam.[/quote][/left][left]
[/left][left]Don’t throw stones in a glass house, Walid. [/left][left]
[/left][left]I am glad that you posted this hadith, because it is the most often quoted hadith used by Shias in order to discredit Abu Huraira. [/left][left]
[/left][left]First of all, it should be clear that even scholars during sermons today narrate hadiths and explain the terms, sometimes even during the middle of the hadith. This may be unclear to some, but scholars, both Sunnis and Shias are guilty of this. In some cases, they change their tone, or take long pauses, which imply that they are not quoting the Prophet (pbuh) anymore, but that is as far as one usually goes. In this case, Abu Huraira gave evidence, either by pausing or changing his tone, which is why the people asked if he heard the last bit from the Prophet (pbuh) or if these words were his own. So, there is no reason to blame him if the people got confused.[/left][left]
[/left][left]Secondly, I was reading a lovely book by Al-Kilbasi (Shia hadithist) recently in which he quoted a few examples of Shia scholars doing the very same thing. [/left][left]
[/left][left][i]He said: He (Al-Saduq) may mention at the end of a hadith in Al-Faqeeh some words that seem similar to the hadith which causes confusion. In the beginning of Al-Wafi when explaining the status of Al-Faqeeh we find: “And sometimes confusion occurs between the hadiths and his words, and his words with the end of the hadith.” Rather, this occurs a lot, and an example is what we find in the chapter of Baab Mawaqeet Al-Salat (Timings of Prayer): “And in the narration of Mu’awiya bin Ammar: The time of isha’a al-akhira is up until a third of the night. And it seems like the third is the middle.” So, his words, “And it seems like the third is the middle,” means the best, and it is obvious that these are the words of Al-Saduq, as concluded by our sultan.[/i][/left][left]
[/left][left]For the above, refer to hadith #657 in the chapter.[/left][left]
[/left][left]Al-Kilbasi then quotes another hadith and shows the insertions of Al-Saduq in the chapter of the Continuation of the Fasting of Ramadhan #435, then again, in the chapter of the Beginning of the Ka’aba #706. He notes that the latter hadith differs from what is included in Al-Kafi and Tahtheeb Al-Ahkaam and thus, it is an addition by Al-Saduq. [/left][left]
[/left][left]Al-Kilbasi then gives another examples in the book of Hajj, [i]Baab Al-Qiran bain Al-Asabee’[/i] #1208 and again in [i]Kitab Al-Ma’ayish [/i]#370.[/left][left]
[/left][left]In [i]Kitab Al-Sayd wal Thaba’ih [/i]#952, he quotes another hadith that says, “Al-Sadiq said: Don’t eat [i]al-jaree, wal maar mahi, wala al-zameer, wala tafee,[/i] and [i]al-tafee[/i] is that which dies in the sea but floats on the water.” Al-Kilbasi then states that the explanation of what [i]al-tafee[/i] is came from Al-Saduq, which is also the opinion of Al-Taqi Al-Majlisi. [/left][left]
[/left][left]Then, Al-Kilbasi goes on to point out that Al-Tusi did the exact same thing, and added words to the end of the hadiths that caused people to think that it is from the original hadith. [/left][left]
[/left][left]Lastly, he says:[/left][left]
[/left][left][i]And he said in Al-Muntaqi that so many of what we find in Al-Tahtheeb were wordings that are attached to the end of hadiths, and there are many (hadiths) that have been added to due to this, and we wouldn’t know of this except through focusing deeply, and sometimes, the exact opposite happens, for we cut off some of the hadith, because we think it is just an addition[/i]. [/left][left]
[/left][left]For those that want to read this in detail, and I recommend it, I suggest picking up this [i]risala[/i], which comes in the form of a four volume book entitled [i]Rasa’il Rijaliya [/i]by Mohammed bin Mohammed Ibrahim Al-Kilbasi. Then, refer to pages 264 – 268.[/left][left]
[/left][left][i] [/i][/left][left]
[size="2"]So, for those that want to discredit Abu Huraira for narrating such a hadith in such a way, I suggest that they start off by discrediting Al-Saduq and Al-Tusi first. If not, then this is an issue of double standards. [/size][/left] Edited by Farid

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I'm not going to bother responding to all the "refutations" of Walid since I don't believe that many of them warrant one, especially since he is an agreement of the content. As I have said, I agree with the content of some of the above, however, most Shias won't.

So, [i]inshallah, [/i]I'll just respond briefly to two statements.

The first is this:

yes beautiful hadith and indeed 12000 sahabi(ra) were the real sahabah among about 120000 so only 10% of the companions are real companions but the rest are just normal people.[/quote]

Notice, the hadith only refers to the companions in Medinah, Makkah, and [i]al-tulaqa'a[/i]. To assume that this means that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't have other companions from other areas is absurd, but rather, he is referring to the companions from these categories. Furthermore, this fits in with the Sunni narrative pretty well, since Sunnis also believe that the [i]tulaqa'a [/i]were two thousand.

Secondly, you said:

there's no problem with it because we believe that prophets true inheritance is the knowledge and this is the meaning of the hadith not that prophets don't leave other forms of inheritance and we know that sulaiman (as) inherited the kingdom of david (as) . this is eloquence that's all.[/quote]

How is rejecting leaving an inheritance in the form of [i]dinars[/i] count as eloquence? It is a clear denial of this form of inheritance. Either way, we could go on arguing about this forever. However, we can both agree with the fact that Shias that say that Abu Bakr has fabricated this hadith is incorrect. In the worst case scenario, we can say that he understood it incorrectly when he refused to give [i]Fadak [/i]to Fatima.

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I would like to conclude by saying the following:

I'm very thankful to Allah for giving me the opportunity share my views regarding what concerns the great [i]sahabi[/i] Abu Huraira and what concerns Ibrahim bin Hashim Al-Qummi. I'd also like to thank brother Jhangvi and the rest of the moderation staff for allowing me to use these boards as a platform to share those views. I'd also like to thank Walid for sharing his views, and without him, none of this would have been possible.

I believe that this was a good debate, seeing as that we have tackled specifics that haven't ever been brought up in any book, research, or any form of written or spoken dialogue before. I sincerely believe this. It is just my hope that this debate will not be forgotten, and will be used onwards for years to come as a reference for Abu Huraira and Ibrahim bin Hashim material.

For those that haven't been able to read through the whole thing, I seriously suggest that you do so, especially for those that are interested in learning a thing or two about Sunni and Shia hadith related issues, for Walid and myself, have gotten into the details of some specifics that aren't really accessible to English-speaking audiences.

Inshallah these last twenty-one pages have been as interesting and informative to all.

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Since both of you came to agreement for end of the debate as was mutually decided in the start, this debate topic is now set [b]CLOSED[/b]. Both the debaters are now requested to please head towards the Q & A session topic within this section.

[warning][b][color="#FF0000"]Topic LOCKED[/color][/b][/warning]

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This topic is now closed to further replies.