Jhangvi

LOCKED Q & A Session: Farid vs Wasil (Walid)

66 posts in this topic

salaam

it was great debate b/w bro Wasil and farid.

right now i am not able to understand all the terms and technicalities used in the debate but in future it will become easy.
Insha allah.

Bro, wasil did you in any of your post talked about that narrations which are about strong memory of abu hurerah? and abu hurerah spend almost 3 years with rasoul(s.a.w.w) but still he narrated lots of narrations as compare to other sahabies who remained with rasoul(s.a.w.w) during his last 23 years specially!
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@Lotfilms: For me to hold the opinion that Abu Huraira isn't trustworthy I would have to disregard the praises of those that knew him like the sahaba and his students. I would also need clear statements from them declaring doubts in his trustworthiness.

As for Ibrahim bin Hashim, as per Sunni standards, I would need some sort of praise from Sunni scholars. Of course, I don't believe he is trustworthy in the eyes of early Shias to begin with.
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@msameer: I only felt kind of uncomfortable when Walid asked me about a hadith in Saheeh Muslim that I believe is weak. I felt uncomfortable not because of my doubts regarding the weakness of thehadith, but rather because it is a very popular view that the Saheehain are 100% authentic. Ironically, that hadith itself is weakened by Bukhari. Edited by Farid
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[quote name='adeel91' timestamp='1323361461' post='105884']
salaam

it was great debate b/w bro Wasil and farid.

right now i am not able to understand all the terms and technicalities used in the debate but in future it will become easy.
Insha allah.

Bro, wasil did you in any of your post talked about that narrations which are about strong memory of abu hurerah? and abu hurerah spend almost 3 years with rasoul(s.a.w.w) but still he narrated lots of narrations as compare to other sahabies who remained with rasoul(s.a.w.w) during his last 23 years specially!
[/quote]
wa alaikom assalam
Yes brother adeel i did talk about this(I think it's the hadith about women and animals being jinxed or something like this ) and i don't think i missed many hadith that are really problematic . putting aside the hadiths where others narrated same hadiths as abu hurairah then the rest of the hadiths are very good examples. As for his memory then you are being nice and i don't mind accepting it because there's strong case showing Abu hurairah's bad memory but to be honest his tadlees is his main downfall but not the only one though(refer to the debate )

But as i said I am not calling him a liar even though there's strong case for this but i cannot face allah (swt) accusing him of this without complete certainty so to me i can safely say he was weak , mudallis and unreliable in what he narrated exceptionally but his hadith can be shahid and can be bearable in fadhail al-amaal and less important after scrutiny . to be fair i saw some fantastic hadiths by abu hurairah : really impressive ones and there's no doubt he heard many hadiths from rasool allah (saww) but he is not strong in hadith as i explained (plz refer to debate )

ws

just edited :: sorry brother i misunderstood your question . yes i see what you mean and no i didn't criticize him for memorizing all these hadiths as this is not a real argument because some humans can memorize better than others and people of "jazeera" (arabic island)were renown for their great memory. some say abu hurairah didn't use to write down according to a hadith he himself was reported to have admitted this but again this is not a strong argument in my opinion wallahu alam Edited by Wasil
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My question to both Wasil and Farid;If i remember correctly; The intent of the debate which was initiated by Farid, to bring down the hadith literature of Shia/Sunni by bringing down the most significant narrator.Since all the understanding of religion is based on hadith, by bringing down the most significant narrator the assumption is generally true that it will strike the weakness of the whole structure of belief and ideology of that particular sect.

To start with this premises, even if one assume away the shia hadith literature as compare to sunni's, even then  the shia core beliefs, i.e. Wilayat Ali and Infallibility of Ahlekisa still cannot be harmed. Since the evidence of it one also find from the core hadiths in sunni literature. The intersecting hadith literature is a composition of both sunni and shiites.

In simple terms, even if we eliminate large part of Shiite hadith literature, the core belief of shiahs will remain intact since they are also evidently manisfested in sunni hadith literature. On the contrary it is not true vice versa for sunni core beliefs of Khilafata Rashida  and about later ummavi period, since then Farid has to show evidence of sunni beliefs from shiite hadith literature. And thats why the defence of Abu Hurraira was more important to Sunnis than anything else.

And that is why Wasil demand was interesting to Farid to talk about Core belief system rather than the mere implication of this topic. If farid or anyone is interested, then i suggest Wasil can be requested to carry on another debate on more useful topic, which is the real bone of contention among Muslims of various sects. Edited by syed5
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@ Farid

Akhee farid mashallah great debate you displayed great Akhlaq and great patience, which from the teachings of Ahlesunnah. May Allah further increase your knowledge to defend the true deen of Islam. From the many queries that I have regarding this debate the first one is regarding the technique of the opponent:

Question to FARID:

We realized that the opponent several times and at regular intervals tried to derail you away from the topic of the debate. He tried to indulge you in a Aqeedah issue, etc . Where as you stuck to the rules of the debate. So do you think that those tricks were due to the weakness the opponent himself realized in his arguments, which compelled him to make an attempt to derail the topic.?
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[quote name='syed5' timestamp='1323369898' post='105912']
My question to both Wasil and Farid;If i remember correctly; The intent of the debate which was initiated by Farid, to bring down the hadith literature of Shia/Sunni by bringing down the most significant narrator.Since all the understanding of religion is based on hadith, by bringing down the most significant narrator the assumption is generally true that it will strike the weakness of the whole structure of belief and ideology of that particular sect.

To start with this premises, even if one assume away the shia hadith literature as compare to sunni's, even then the shia core beliefs, i.e. Wilayat Ali and Infallibility of Ahlekisa still cannot be harmed. Since the evidence of it one also find from the core hadiths in sunni literature. The intersecting hadith literature is a composition of both sunni and shiites.

In simple terms, even if we eliminate large part of Shiite hadith literature, the core belief of shiahs will remain intact since they are also evidently manisfested in sunni hadith literature. On the contrary it is not true vice versa for sunni core beliefs of Khilafata Rashida and about later ummavi period, since then Farid has to show evidence of sunni beliefs from shiite hadith literature. And thats why the defence of Abu Hurraira was more important to Sunnis than anything else.

And that is why Wasil demand was interesting to Farid to talk about Core belief system rather than the mere implication of this topic. If farid or anyone is interested, then i suggest Wasil can be requested to carry on another debate on more useful topic, which is the real bone of contention among Muslims of various sects.
[/quote]


Salam alaykom

i wanted to discuss aqeedah etc but Farid declined and i did so many times but he didn't want it and i respect his choice and to be fair i just want to stay away from any religious debates from now on. I think i tried hard to help my fellow shias understand true tashayu but i failed , yes i failed (i am not talking about the debate here but about my attempts to reform the minds of the young shias online )and this is why i just want to retire and rest because i believe that all what i did was in vain [u]most of it[/u] apart from the benefit some of my close brothers found. I think ghulat are stronger than us for now and this is foretold so never mind

ws Edited by Wasil
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SECOND QUESTION TO "FARID":

What's your view regarding the excuses where the opponent tried to escape away stating that those were copyist errors... DO you think this excuse had any weight or even you thought that these were lame and you just let them go for the sake of debate? Edited by swords_of_sunnah
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Question to Wasil if he's still around,

First of all I remember in one of the threads you repented from making Takfeer and calling people Nawasib and such, I say I also repent from making Takfeer on you after you insulted my family. anyways..

There was this narration by Ibn Hashim which mentioned shortening the moustache as prevention form leporacy, you never commented on this as Ibn Hashim is I guess the only one to say it, the Shawahid don't mention this I believe.
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[quote name='TripolySunni' timestamp='1323376940' post='105942']
Question to Wasil if he's still around,

First of all I remember in one of the threads you repented from making Takfeer and calling people Nawasib and such, I say I also repent from making Takfeer on you after you insulted my family. anyways..

There was this narration by Ibn Hashim which mentioned shortening the moustache as prevention form leporacy, you never commented on this as Ibn Hashim is I guess the only one to say it, the Shawahid don't mention this I believe.
[/quote]

Unfortunately i am a short tempered person and this has caused me great ordeals even in my personal life.

I don't remember making takfeer on you but if i did then i am sorry as takfeer is a matter for Allah i believe. as for your family then i am sorry and i won't say "BUT" because no matter what happened people's parents should be left outside any quarrel.

now ibrahim ibn hashim didn't narrate this exclusively and here's some hadiths from wasail al-shia without ibrahim in the chain :

وعن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن الحسن بن علي ، عن الحسن بن سليمان ، عن عمه عبدالله بن هلال قال : قال لي أبو عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : خذ من شاربك وأظفارك في كل جمعة ، فإن لم يكن <br style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">
فيها شيء فحكها ، لا يصيبك جنون ولا جذام ولا برص .<br style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">


so from mohamed ibn yahya from ahmed ibn mohamed from hasan ibn ali from hasan ibn sulaiman from his uncle abdullah ibn hilal he said |: abu abdillah(as) told me : shorten your moustache ...every friday ...you will not be contract ...leprosy


[url="http://www.rafed.net/books/hadith/wasael-7/wasail15.html"]http://www.rafed.net/books/hadith/wasael-7/wasail15.html[/url]


and there's also other shawahid .


shukran
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Salaamun alaykum


[quote] I think i tried hard to help my fellow shias understand true tashayu but i failed , yes i failed (i am not talking about the debate here but about my attempts to reform the minds of the young shias online )and this is why i just want to retire[/quote]

Dear brother Walid

I can guarante you that this statement of yours is 100 % not true. You have helped me alot, actually so much that you can not imagine, and through your refutation of the Ghulaat (may Allah guide and if not punnish them) many mani Shi'as are beginning to wake up here where i live, and are starting not to believe in all this ghulu like attributing ilm ul Ghaib to imams as etc so for that i am very thankfull wal-hamdulillah.

Now to the question This is Also for you brother walid

In the debate you said that you had sent a question to Sayed al-Sistani about Nawadir al-Hikmah. Did you get a response and if yes do you mind posting it ?
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And i forgot to say to both Shaikh Walid and Shaikh Farid, thank you for a great debate full of wisdom i learned alot from it al-hamdulillah, may god grant you both more knowledge and may Allah guide us all InshaaAllah.
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[quote] SECOND QUESTION TO "FARID":

What's your view regarding the excuses where the opponent tried to escape away stating that those were copyist errors... DO you think this excuse had any weight or even you thought that these were lame and you just let them go for the sake of debate?[/quote]

This question technically falls under the first, since this is the only really derailment that actually affected the debate, in my opinion, due to the amount of time spent on this issue.

To keep it short, I can't say that Walid did this on purpose. In my opinion, he was just trying to justify his views that authentic hadith can be weak due to copyist errors. Of course, I never disagreed with him, but I said that one needs evidence to prove that the specific hadith has a copyist error. One cannot assume that it is a copyist error just because the text of the hadith is strange. So, yeah, I think Walid was trying to prove that copyist errors existed, and he was preaching to the choir since I already agreed with him, but rather disagreed with his methodology.

I'm not sure if it was due to miscommunication or not, but he should have understood this after a post or two. But as the debate shows, it took quite a while for this point to get through.
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Asalamulakum brother Farid and Walid... The Debate was so great and academic, i followed it every single post made by both debaters. I am very thankful to both of you.

My question to Walid, you have posted link is given below in yours comments...

[quote][b]ps: i have never seen worst than some shias : now they are accusing me of treason and letting the shia community down as if they appointed me to debate and some even insinuated that i am getting paid by HCY team ! lanatollahi alakadhibeen . when i am in debate they insult me and when i wanted to leave to avoid entering a confrontational issues at the advice of my teachers then i am compared to abu musa al-ash'ari and they even accused me of conspiracy. why didn't any one of them come forward to debate and defend sheikh ibrahim ibn hashim ridhwan allahi alaih and who did a job that come even closer to defending him(ra) in any english forum ? hasbiya allahu wani3ma alwakeel[/b]
http://islamic-forum...pic=14843&st=80[/quote]
Then you said.....

[quote][b]"as for people who thought that this debate is staged then we all know why so you are acting again: the reason is that these people don't believe i am shia because it's strange for them to see a shia that doesn't believe that imams(as) control the universe and know alghaib(astaghfirollah) and give livelihood and can be called upon them to help with other than tawassol and it's hard for them to see a shia that is not fond of cursing day and night and doesn't believe all sahabah apostated and doesn't beat himself silly during ashura. it's hard for them to stomach this and to add to these people's misery then my belief in sciences of hadith drives them mad because how are they going to feed their ghulu if these sciences are implemented ? they are stuck and ghulu is something they cannot live without."[/b]
http://islamic-forum...ic=14843&st=160[/quote]
Brother Walid I have read on yours forum where you declared 95% Shias full of Ghulu, where you enlisted Nadir Zavir as a Muqasir.

You are banned at Shia's forums as well, So I wanna know what is the reason? Shias don't accept you to Shia? with due respect I know you are not welcomed here either.

What is the reason?

Thanks

[warning]This is Q & A Session regarding the debate topic. [b]DO NOT[/b] post queries apart from the debate topic please. You are requested to abide the Q & A Session rules posted in the very first post.[/warning] Edited by Jhangvi
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Question to Brother Farid,

You said in yours post that if we take all Hadeeths narrated by Abu Hurara(r.a) still it wont effect Ahlel Sunnah.(Please correct me If I am wrong)

but Shiaism will sink in case Ibrahim bin Hashim is proved liar etc ?

Imam Jawad(r.a) imamate depends on the narration narrated by Ibahim bin Hashim....Is that the reason or they are many others too?

I will appreciate yours answer.
Thanks
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