Jhangvi

LOCKED Q & A Session: Farid vs Wasil (Walid)

66 posts in this topic

[quote name='Ali Shah Hussain' timestamp='1323401512' post='105991']
Question for Walid.

The Imamate "Nass" of Imam Hadi(r.a) that he would be next Imam is narrated only by Ibrahim bin Hisham?
[color="#ff0000"]According to early scholars Abrahim bin Hisham wasn't Thiqa,this is what you have agreed in debates(Please correct me if I am wrong).[/color]

In that case don't you think it will sink the whole Imamate theory of 12rs Shias?

Waiting for yours answer thanks.
[/quote]

akhi the red part is the opposite of what i was saying since day one in the debate : ibrahim ibn hashim is thiqat according to the early scholars like sheikh ibn al-waleed (ra) but the tawtheeq of ibrahim by mutaqaddimeen was not with clear words like : "he is thiqat " or "he is sadooq " but indirect tawtheeq understood from their reliance on him and considering chains with him in it sahih (ibn alwaleed again) and other big hints .

as for imamate al-hadi then it's proven through history and ijma'a of shia upon him and doesn't depend on sheikh ibrahim's hadith or hadith of others . also the nass on his imamate was narrated by others even with weak sanad but still the hadith of sheikh ibrahim is hujja on its own.

tc

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Salaamun alaykum

[quote]alhamdulilleh that you benefited masha'allah akhi may allah bless you .[/quote]

And may Allah swt bless you brother Walid, your retirement will be a great loss for all the Shia, inshaaAllah one day they will wake up. I have alot of questions (other then the debate) and i hope that if you decide not to "stop" you will answer them one day InshaaAllah. Edited by al-andalusi
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[quote name='al-andalusi' timestamp='1323431047' post='106035']
Salaamun alaykum

[quote]alhamdulilleh that you benefited masha'allah akhi may allah bless you .[/quote]

And may Allah swt bless you brother Walid, your retirement will be a great loss for all the Shia, inshaaAllah one day they will wake up. I have alot of questions (other then the debate) and i hope that if you decide not to "stop" you will answer them one day InshaaAllah.
[/quote]
God bless akhi ! inshallah good shia like you can take over and carry on inshallah . i am tired akhi and i need to rest jazakallah khairan


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InshaaAllah habibi Walid, do you mind giving me your e-mail i might need it in the future i promise not bothering you. Edited by MohammadMufti
ask in private chat - that has nothing to do with the discussion
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I am willing to answer any question from anyone until late this evening so please do ask!
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Sir Farid
1-In the start of the debate you were emphasizing on the views of the early shia scholars and late shia scholars i.e early shia scholars called falan thiqa but late didnot and vice verse ....is there any importance of such thing in shia ilme rijal....is there any thing also exist in sunni ilme rijal..

Admin Jhangvi
2- can we have the clases for the whole debate ....... If Sir Farid agree

Sir walid

you views will also be highly appreciable......
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[quote name='junoon26' timestamp='1323446901' post='106050']
Sir Farid
1-In the start of the debate you were emphasizing on the views of the early shia scholars and late shia scholars i.e early shia scholars called falan thiqa but late didnot and vice verse ....is there any importance of such thing in shia ilme rijal....is there any thing also exist in sunni ilme rijal..

Admin Jhangvi
2- can we have the clases for the whole debate ....... If Sir Farid agree

Sir walid

you views will also be highly appreciable......
[/quote]

akhi this mutaqaddim muta'akhir classification is overrated to be honest. there's no doubt that mutaqaddimeen views have more weight but this doesn't mean muta'akhireen cannot add to them and also in sunni rijel also if we rely only on views of muta'akhireen then many big books would be weak like sunan tirmidhi and ibn majah sunan and tareekh awsat by bukhari etc etc and also many big sunnis scholars would become unknown . We discussed some of this during the debate. as for ibrahim ibn hashim then akhi anyway you look at it he is thiqat be it according to real mutaqaddimeen like ibn alwaleed or later scholars like najashi and others even if they didn't clearly say he was thiqat literally but he is thiqat as i explained and also thiqat according to muta'akhireen and don't forget what sayed ibn tawoos said when he claimed consensus(ijm'a) about wathaqa of ibrahim ibn hashim (rah) which meant he got solid information from mutaqaddimeen about this as explained sayed al-khoei .

ws

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Brother Junoon as both I and Walid have admitted there are differences of opinions surrounding the weight of the opinions of late scholars. Either way the weight of their statements are a lot less significant than early scholars without a doubt.

Edit: All the points brought up by Walid in the previous post have been refuted in the debate. Edited by Farid
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[quote name='Farid' timestamp='1323448457' post='106054']
Edit: All the points brought up by Walid in the previous post [u]have been refuted in the debate[/u].[/quote]
akhi junoon i hope you skim through the debate to see that what Farid is wrong in what he said !
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[font="Book Antiqua"][size="3"]Assalam o Alikum!

Although I wanted to stay away from it but there is something in my mind that needs clarification:

1- When a mutakhir differs from a mutaqadim, is it necessary for him (mutakhir) to bring into light the [b]NEW INFORMATION[/b] based on which he (mutakhir) differed from mutaqadim (be it in tawtheeq or otherwise)? Or a mutakhir can simply differ from mutaqadim out of thin air?

2- Walid! in case of Ibrahim you acceppted that mutaqadimeen didn't made his tawtheeq in clear cut form and its through different narrations that one has to establish that Ibrahim was relied upon by mutaqadimeen .... Right? My question is, is this the case only with Ibrahim or we have ANYOTHER MAJOR shia narrator whose tawtheeq is establshed in the same way i.e. Indirectly?

JazakAllah

P.S: Bro Farid, I would like to have your input on the above, as well[/size][/font]
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[quote name='Ali Muaawiah' timestamp='1323459386' post='106067']
[font="Book Antiqua"][size="3"]Assalam o Alikum!

Although I wanted to stay away from it but there is something in my mind that needs clarification:

1- When a mutakhir differs from a mutaqadim, is it necessary for him (mutakhir) to bring into light the [b]NEW INFORMATION[/b] based on which he (mutakhir) differed from mutaqadim (be it in tawtheeq or otherwise)? Or a mutakhir can simply differ from mutaqadim out of thin air?

2- Walid! in case of Ibrahim you acceppted that mutaqadimeen didn't made his tawtheeq in clear cut form and its through different narrations that one has to establish that Ibrahim was relied upon by mutaqadimeen .... Right? My question is, is this the case only with Ibrahim or we have ANYOTHER MAJOR shia narrator whose tawtheeq is establshed in the same way i.e. Indirectly?

JazakAllah

P.S: Bro Farid, I would like to have your input on the above, as well[/size][/font]
[/quote]

salam

akhi many tawtheeqaat are based on hadas . let's be honest here . some scholars just examine the hadith of the person to see if he is thiqat or not and this is more specific to sunnis than shia experts in rijel (our early scholars ). some scholars would say : i scrutinized hadith of such narrator and i found it so and so ..
to me if it's based on hadas then there's no difference and it's no big deal that some experts use hadas(intuition) to be honest and also even those scholars who relied on their shyukh then this doesn't mean hadas(intuition) is excluded here! not at all.

Ibrahim ibn hashim ; we don't have information from mutaqaddimeen saying :" he is thiqat " literally but this doesn't mean that he this didn't happen ! actually the opposite is true if you scrutinize the words of ibn tawoos who claimed ijma about his trustworthiness whicvh means he had access to more information from mutaqaddimeen than we do now or than najashi and tusi did .

najashi relies on his shyukh and very rarely uses hadas so if he doesn't hear the word "thiqat " then he doesn't use it but he used expressions showing wathaqa without a doubt.

some major scholars were deemed trustworthy according to shaheed thani for instance like mohamed ibn ismaeel the sheikh of kulaini because shaheed thani believes all mashayikh al-ijaza are thiqat and there's mohamed ibn musa ibn al-mutawakkil who was deemed trustworthy by muta'akhireen even though there's[u] classical tawtheeq[/u] from mutaqaddimeen apart from narration of sheikh sadooq from him and he declared that he only narrates from thiqat or maybe there was information available to allmah alhilli that didn't reach others wallahu alam Edited by Wasil
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[quote] akhi junoon i hope you skim through the debate to see that what Farid is wrong in what he said ![/quote]

Brother Junoon, for the reliability of Ibn Majah, please refer to posts #33, #34, Walid's post #36, another one of mine #37, Walid's #38, and finally, my post #41.

For the reliability of Sunan Al-Tirmithi and the [i]tawtheeq[/i] of narrators of famous books in general, please refer to posts #339 - #347.

Edit: I would also like to add that Walid shouldn't believe everything he finds on the internet. Look through Al-Irshad by Al-Khaleeli if you are adamant about the narrators of Al-Tareekh Al-Awsat being unknown. Edited by Farid
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[quote]
1- When a mutakhir differs from a mutaqadim, is it necessary for him (mutakhir) to bring into light the [b]NEW INFORMATION[/b] based on which he (mutakhir) differed from mutaqadim (be it in tawtheeq or otherwise)? Or a mutakhir can simply differ from mutaqadim out of thin air?

2- Walid! in case of Ibrahim you acceppted that mutaqadimeen didn't made his tawtheeq in clear cut form and its through different narrations that one has to establish that Ibrahim was relied upon by mutaqadimeen .... Right? My question is, is this the case only with Ibrahim or we have ANYOTHER MAJOR shia narrator whose tawtheeq is establshed in the same way i.e. Indirectly?

JazakAllah

P.S: Bro Farid, I would like to have your input on the above, as well[/quote]

1) Well, I honestly think it is a matter of common sense. There was a decent time gap between the early early scholars that included a biography for Ibrahim bin Hashim and the late scholars that made [i]tawtheeq[/i] for him. As I've mentioned in the debate, it isn't like the early scholars ignored his existence. They did include him in their books and they had the opportunity to be clear about their views about him. The [i]muta'akireen[/i] did have one thing going for them though. They usually have access to earlier books that were lost. This is by far the main reason that I go to purchase books of late scholars, because they preserved earlier opinions. Of course, in most cases, the late scholars point out how they derived their opinion by quoting earlier sources. That, in my opinion, is the "new" information, which isn't really all that new if you think about it.

2) This is a good question. Please refer to post #41 in the debate thread.
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@Brother Jhangvi.

[quote]"This is Q & A Session regarding the debate topic. [b]DO NOT[/b] post queries apart from the debate topic please. You are requested to abide the Q & A Session rules posted in the very first post."[/quote]
Well I have given links from debates in my above question to Walid,this is what he has posted in debates,so to me it was relevant since Walid has mentioned this thing while replying to Farid.
Brother you can check the links too.Anyhow I am always abide to forum roles.
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[quote name='Wasil' timestamp='1323430553' post='106033']
akhi the red part is the opposite of what i was saying since day one in the debate : ibrahim ibn hashim is thiqat according to the early scholars like sheikh ibn al-waleed (ra) but the tawtheeq of ibrahim by mutaqaddimeen was not with clear words like : "he is thiqat " or "he is sadooq " but indirect tawtheeq understood from their reliance on him and considering chains with him in it sahih (ibn alwaleed again) and other big hints .

[b][color="#ff0000"]as for imamate al-hadi then it's proven through history and ijma'a of shia upon him and doesn't depend on sheikh ibrahim's hadith or hadith of others [/color][/b]. also the nass on his imamate was narrated by others even with weak sanad but still the hadith of sheikh ibrahim is hujja on its own.

tc[/quote]
Thanks brother for yours reply and correcting me...now about the bold red part...Then all Shia wasn't agree on the Imamate of Imam Hadi(r.a)(Being divine Imam) since many Shia sects broke out at the death of each Imam?In that case calling it Ijmaa of Shia on his Imamate doesn't make him divine Imam?

Second how Ijmaa works to establish an divine Imam?Had it been just a Imam/Ameer then Ijmaa would have meant somehow. Isn't it?
My question is that to be divine person,one has to have clear text(Nass) and if the Nass is only reported by the person who is not "Thiqa" and early Scholars weren't agreed upon him being or not,in that case 12rs Shia doctorine aren't on line of collapsing in med way?
Thanks
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