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Jhangvi

General Discussion: Debate - Farid vs Wasil

100 posts in this topic

After the Debate (including Q & A session) between Farid vs Wasil have finally ended, the house is now open for general discussion.
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For the benefit of the readers, I've included links to nine hadiths that are used to attack the reliability of Abu Huraira, which have been narrated by other companions:

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=220&p=102355&#entry102355"]The Prophet (pbuh) Sees the Devil During Prayers[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=220&p=102427&#entry102427"]A Talking Wolf[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=340&p=105236&#entry105236"]Major Praise for Omar[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=360&p=105290&#entry105290"]Abu Bakr was the Amir of Hajj and not Ali[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=360&p=105290&#entry105290"]Hesitation (refer to post #375 for explanation of the hadith)[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]The Hadith of Qazman bin Al-Harith[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]The Prophet (pbuh) Cursing the Believers[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]Allah’s Leg[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105827&#entry105827"]Abu Talib in Hell[/url]
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Brother [b]Farid[/b]:

1. Why was that so, [b]Wasil[/b] start from the beginning, kept on emphasizing on [i]Ibrahim bin Hashim's[/i] trustworthiness of others, apart from the top-guns of Shia Rijaali scholars like Tusi, Najashi etc?

2. Were his point on Ibrahim bin Hashim's [i]wuthaqah[/i] by Ibn Al-Waleed and Ibne Taoos valid? Or are such acceptable in Shia Hadith Science?

3. It seems he made a narrow-escape from those last posted Hadiths by you regarding Ibrahim bin Hashim. He gave some comments on those. Are those in anyway justified?
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[quote name='Jhangvi']
1. Why was that so, [b]Wasil[/b] start from the beginning, kept on emphasizing on [i]Ibrahim bin Hashim's[/i] trustworthiness of others, apart from the top-guns of Shia Rijaali scholars like Tusi, Najashi etc?[/quote]
The reason is pretty obvious, and I'm sure you've guessed it. This was because they don't make [i]tawtheeq[/i] for Ibrahim bin Hashim. Walid, at one point, did argue that they did, when he said that they mentioned that he was the first to spread hadiths in Qom (which too has been refuted), but he only did this much later. If he believed this truthfully, then he should have mentioned it first as his main argument.

[quote name='Jhangvi']
2. Were his point on Ibrahim bin Hashim's [i]wuthaqah[/i] by Ibn Al-Waleed and Ibne Taoos valid? Or are such acceptable in Shia Hadith Science?[/quote]
Major difference of opinion regarding both points akhi. [i]Tawtheeq[/i] of Ibn Al-Waleed, is extremely shaky, which is why Walid himself changed his view regarding this more than once in the debate. It was like he was learning Shia hadith sciences from ground zero. In my opinion, equating [i]tawtheeq[/i] with inclusion in Nawadir Al-Hikma is something that Shias force upon themselves out of desperation, in order to strengthen more narrators. The [i]tawtheeq[/i] of Ibn Tawoos is too baseless because he says that there is [i]ijma'a [/i]regarding this, but not a single scholar before was quoted to having had said [i]tawtheeq[/i] for Ibrahim bin Hashim, so he was either exaggerating or talking about his contemporaries, no way did he mean early scholars.

[quote name='Jhangvi']
3. It seems he made a narrow-escape from those last posted Hadiths by you regarding Ibrahim bin Hashim. He gave some comments on those. Are those in anyway justified?[/quote]
Some of those last eight will be of major importance to most Shias. I believe that Walid was trying to downplay this and make them seem like small arguments by giving one line posts. On the other hand, you will notice that I didn't respond to arguments with one line, no matter how ridiculous they were. Some of them included several sources, hours of research, and paragraphs of arguments. All this so that there would not be a single doubt left in the hearts of the brothers regarding the first [i]sahib hadeeth [/i]on the earth, Abu Huraira.
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I thought his reply about the last hadith ( about inheritance of the prophets :AlyhimSalam: ) was very weak. The biggest point Shia have in regards to Fadek, is the claim that Abu Bakr :RA Anho: invented it. The fact that they have it, destroys anything they have to say. Now whether he misunderstood it or not is another story, but that's never what Shia's say, their biggest point is him inventing it not misunderstanding it.
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^ Even if we were to give in to the idea that it was a misunderstanding, then it would still go against Shiasm, since it would lower the status of Fatima (raa) who supposedly held a grudge until her death because Abu Bakr supposedly misunderstood her. Either way, it is a lose-lose situation for Shias.
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[quote name='Farid' timestamp='1323555106' post='106218']
For the benefit of the readers, I've included links to nine hadiths that are used to attack the reliability of Abu Huraira, which have been narrated by other companions:

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=220&p=102355&#entry102355"]The Prophet (pbuh) Sees the Devil During Prayers[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=220&p=102427&#entry102427"]A Talking Wolf[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=340&p=105236&#entry105236"]Major Praise for Omar[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=360&p=105290&#entry105290"]Abu Bakr was the Amir of Hajj and not Ali[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=360&p=105290&#entry105290"]Hesitation (refer to post #375 for explanation of the hadith)[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]The Hadith of Qazman bin Al-Harith[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]The Prophet (pbuh) Cursing the Believers[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]Allah’s Leg[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105827&#entry105827"]Abu Talib in Hell[/url]
[/quote]

Jazaaka Allahu khairan Akhi! And thank you Waleed. This was the best service he could do to Ahl Al-Sunnah (English speaker ones). He helped us to frustrate alot of Rafidis in the future, Insha Allaah, whenever they bring up those doubts. Excellent job Waleed.

It's like being in war, Wasil being a Rafidi and handing over loads of ammunition to us. Suicidal, but hey, we don't mind hehe. Edited by Ebn Hussein
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[quote name='Farid' timestamp='1323555106' post='106218']
For the benefit of the readers, I've included links to nine hadiths that are used to attack the reliability of Abu Huraira, which have been narrated by other companions:

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=220&p=102355&#entry102355"]The Prophet (pbuh) Sees the Devil During Prayers[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=220&p=102427&#entry102427"]A Talking Wolf[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=340&p=105236&#entry105236"]Major Praise for Omar[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=360&p=105290&#entry105290"]Abu Bakr was the Amir of Hajj and not Ali[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=360&p=105290&#entry105290"]Hesitation (refer to post #375 for explanation of the hadith)[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]The Hadith of Qazman bin Al-Harith[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]The Prophet (pbuh) Cursing the Believers[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105730&#entry105730"]Allah’s Leg[/url]

[url="http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14843&st=400&p=105827&#entry105827"]Abu Talib in Hell[/url]
[/quote]

Salam Alaikum brother,

This is a good and easy way to benefit from the debate.

Could you or other brothers give link (like above) to each different topic discussed in the debate? That would be great.
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http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234995924-wasil/

Someone seems to be annoyed here.
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Wasil came back to ahlosonah. Now his facebook wall is full of praise for Abu Bakr(ra) and Omar(ra) and othman(ra) and Aicha(ra) and he admitted he was lost before.
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^ Salam Alaikum

If it is true then it is a great news. All praise be to Allah (swt), It is He who guides.


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[quote name='AbuMuslimKhorasani' timestamp='1337625957' post='115259']
^ Salam Alaikum

If it is true then it is a great news. All praise be to Allah (swt), It is He who guides.
[/quote]

Oqsimou laka akhi it's true. He Announced it today with us on facebook.

If you want then I can post the last parts of our conversation with him today here. Edited by saleh.neji
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[quote name='saleh.neji' timestamp='1337626413' post='115260']
Oqsimou laka akhi it's true. He Announced it today with us on facebook.

If you want then I can post the last parts of our conversation with him today here.[/quote]
Assalaamu 'Alaykum,

Make sure you get his permission to post it on here. Maybe your conversation was private.

Wa 'Alaykumassalaam,
Aboo Abdallaah
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Salam `Aleykum,

Well to be honest, last time he came on here with a different username we had a chat, I don't want to talk about the details because I don't have his permission, but to me he felt closer to Sunnah than Shia...

Allah knows best and Allah guides whom he wishes to what he wishes. Edited by Hani
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He always knew Shi'ism is a religion for perverts and lunatics and Zanadiqah. Shi'ism is just some esoteric cult so Shaytan can fool you into it, and if you have khayr Allah will open your heart. Also Wasil is Tunisian, there is no room for the Majoosi cult of Shi'ism in Arab countries and for Arab people:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BSIPMYvP1s&feature=plcp[/media]


But Allah and his Deen neither needs him nor us, but if it's true than it's good.
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