Irenic

Ameer Muavia (RA)

77 posts in this topic

Tareekh Tibari is not an ultimate source, it is known for exaggeration and fabrication of events by narrators it quote from. What happened between Sahabas[ra] is matter of their interpretations, which in any case is 1000s of time better then ours, Your Imam abandond the city of RasoolAllah[saw], followed and attacked Ummal Momineen[ra], killed many noble companions[ra]. Imam not only lead the rebels who attacked the city of RasoolAllah[saw], but left the city of RasoolAllah[saw] vulnerable at time when it was necessary solidify the khilafate.

PS: By Allah Hz. Ali[ra] is free of what ever Shia attribute to him

I have started doubts on your knowledge about Islamic history and beliefs. You are not really acting like a Sunni even. The name of this forum is "Haq Chaar Yar", Meaning four friends are right. And the four friends i suppose are Caliph Abu Bakar, Umar, Osman and Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib.

Ameerul Momineen Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib is also unanimously called among the four Right Guided Caliphs by Sunni Brothers. Which faith do you belong? Are you Khaarji!.

So there was no reason for any ummal Momineen to even leave the home of Rasoolullah not to mention the city of Madinah and fight against any right guided caliph along with 'Na Mahrams'. When Allah SWT clearly orders to the wives of Prophet SAW in Surah Ahzab " STAY 'QUIETLY' IN YOUR HOUSES". ( this is a very well known verse, and ..ummul moineen used to weep after Jang Jumul when she used to read it again and again.

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَى(33:33

Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore;

[Yusufali 33:33] And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance;

[Pickthal 33:33] And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance.

Edited by Zulfiqar
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33:33 according to Shia myth was revealed for the family of Imam, so you quote this aya out of Shia context. If Shia with knowledge like your could waiver my beliefs I would not have been nightmare for Shia for over 14 yrs online, you did not read my initial post it "2b Contd" . It is not for Shia to quote for Muslim Quran, bring the book that Shia Imam Mahdi took with him, then quote.

Till you find the book read this http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=8980&view=findpost&p=74161

Edited by Fatah-Momin
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Dear Sword, ( you dont read reply from your friends and just copy paste for bahas like a blind )

Thats is why your lies were caugh red handedly.......

read the reply from Fatah Momin, earlier in which he referred to History of Tabari, about Amr bin As:

1/ History of Tibari Vol.4, part 2, page302/303/304/305/306, Muhammad Bin Abi Bakr wrote to Hz. Ali[ra], that Ibn Alaas[ra] has arrived in Egypt with army, peple who support Mauwiyah[ra] have joined him

2/ Umar Bin Alaas[ra] divided his army in several detachments and started sending them against army of Kanah, after a pitch battle, Kanah was killed and Syrian army approached Muhammad Bin Abi Bakr, his army abandond him and he was captured, later he was killed wrapped in donkey skin and burned. Mauwiyah [ra] said that I will kill you in Kisas of death of Hz. Uthman[ra].

I will quote later what Tabari actually writes in his book. At the time of Death Muhammad ibn Abi Bakar was the governor of Egypt (appointed by Ameer ul Momineen Hazrat Ali ibn Abi talib) as written in Tabari.

so far this reply of one of your brother should be sufficient for you. He mentioned that it was the Syrian Army of Amr bin As and Muwayiah who attcked Muhammad Ibn Abi Bakar and martyred him.

really funny, when did i reject what you say? hahahaha seems you dodnt even understand what you answer.

I just said that It was muawiya ibn hydayj who killed muhammed bin abubakar who denied that they were of syrian army? did i anywhere reject that?

(You dont have any remorse for the son of the first caliph) !!!

This is the most funniest thing you are doing here...because THE MAIN ARGUMENT YOU RAISED HERE WAS THAT, HZ AYESHA(RA) CURSED THE KILLER OF MUHAMMED BIN ABUBAKAR I ASKED YOU TO PROVE ITS AUTHENTICITY......(THEY SWALLOWED THAT WHY? WE KNOW THAT)

(HAHA I expect that you will say that since those were present in books of sunni historians so they are authetic...hahahaha if you say so then grow up even a kinder gardener will mock at you if you say so.)

SO COME ON DONT WASTE OUR TIME AND BRING PROOF FOR AUTHENTICITY OF NARRATIONS THAT HZ AYESHA(RA) CURSED KILLER OF MUHAMMED BIN ABUBAKAR.

IF YOU CANT PROOF AUTHETICITY THEN ...........THERE IS NO REASON TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION BECAUSE WE DONT ENTERTAIN COPY PASTERS.

So there was no reason for any ummal Momineen to even leave the home of Rasoolullah not to mention the city of Madinah and fight against any right guided caliph along with 'Na Mahrams'. When Allah SWT clearly orders to the wives of Prophet SAW in Surah Ahzab " STAY 'QUIETLY' IN YOUR HOUSES". ( this is a very well known verse, and ..ummul moineen used to weep after Jang Jumul when she used to read it again and again.

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَى(33:33

Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore;

[Yusufali 33:33] And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance;

[Pickthal 33:33] And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance.

CAN YOU ANSWER TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS IN SENSIBLE MANNER WITH OUT THE FUNNY RUN AROUNDS?

1. why did prophet(Saw) took his wives along with him to hajj atul wida....(because there is no mentioned of quran that wives can go out)

2. If you are offering salah then can you break salah in middle of it if you find that you are in an extreme condition? if Yes then why cant wives go out of their homes (WITH THE INTENTION TO MAKE PEACE BETWEEN MUSLIMS)

(try to answer the first one with sense)

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33:33 according to Shia myth was revealed for the family of Imam, so you quote this aya out of Shia context. If Shia with knowledge like your could waiver my beliefs I would not have been nightmare for Shia for over 14 yrs online, you did not read my initial post it "2b Contd" . It is not for Shia to quote for Muslim Quran, bring the book that Shia Imam Mahdi took with him, then quote.

Till you find the book read this http://islamic-forum...indpost&p=74161

14 saal seay NIGHT MARE jub internet bhi ejad nahi huwa tha.....ha ha ha you are so funny. Aap tu khaseay booreay hain, ab aap arraam kareay, khasa time guzar liya gumrahi main.

for you information what you said about Imam Ali in your earlier post:

"Loving Ali is belief and Hating him is hypocracy" (Shahih Muslim Vol1 -page 61)

Edited by Zulfiqar
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14 saal seay NIGHT MARE jub internet bhi ejad nahi huwa tha.....ha ha ha you are so funny. Aap tu khaseay booreay hain, ab aap arraam kareay, khasa time guzar liya gumrahi main.

for you information what you said about Imam Ali in your earlier post:

"Loving Ali is belief and Hating him is hypocracy" (Shahih Muslim Vol1 -page 61)

lol shayad tum jis gaaon ya khede me rehte the wahan nahi hua hoga, fatah bhai canada me rehte hain jo ke ek advanced country hai.....

and fyi....internet was developed more than 20 years back......

Developed from networking protocols, including ARPANET in the 1960s and 70s. The invention of the internet could be said to stem from the creation of the Internet Protocol Suite which allowed global communication of computers introduced in 1974 and TCP/IP was adopted in 1983 as the preferred system.

And we have another smiliar hadees which says that LOVING ANSAR IS BELIEF AND HATING THEM HYPOCRISY....(sahi muslim). So think thrice before opening your mouth against ashaad e rasool.

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lol shayad tum jis gaaon ya khede me rehte the wahan nahi hua hoga, fatah bhai canada me rehte hain jo ke ek advanced country hai.....

and fyi....internet was developed more than 20 years back......

Developed from networking protocols, including ARPANET in the 1960s and 70s. The invention of the internet could be said to stem from the creation of the Internet Protocol Suite which allowed global communication of computers introduced in 1974 and TCP/IP was adopted in 1983 as the preferred system.

And we have another smiliar hadees which says that LOVING ANSAR IS BELIEF AND HATING THEM HYPOCRISY....(sahi muslim). So think thrice before opening your mouth against ashaad e rasool.

aapkeay paas shaid Saudi Arabia wala chapa edition hai. Kya Hadith number batayain gay keay main check kur loon..

Any how keep remember the Hadith of Bukhari that a rebellious party / trangressors will kill Ammar bin Yasar. And now read Quran as well. This is for your guidance.

What Quran says about companions who could be transgressors:

أَلَمْ يَأْنِ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَن تَخْشَعَ قُلُوبُهُمْ لِذِكْرِ اللَّهِ وَمَا نَزَلَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ وَلَا يَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلُ فَطَالَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْأَمَدُ فَقَسَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنْهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ {16}

[Shakir 57:16] Has not the time yet come for those who believe that their hearts should be humble for the remembrance of Allah and what has come down of the truth? And that they should not be like those who were given the Book before, but the time became prolonged to them, so their hearts hardened, and most of them are transgressors.

[Yusufali 57:16] Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.

[Pickthal 57:16] Is not the time ripe for the hearts of those who believe to submit to Allah's reminder and to the truth which is revealed, that they become not as those who received the scripture of old but the term was prolonged for them and so their hearts were hardened, and many of them are evil-livers.

Edited by Zulfiqar
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aapkeay paas shaid Saudi Arabia wala chapa edition hai. Kya Hadith number batayain gay keay main check kur loon..

sahi muslim:

Bk 1, Number 0136:It is reported on the authority of Anas that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings Be upon him) observed: The sign of a hypocrite is the hatred against the Ansar and the sign of a believer is the love for the Ansar.

Bk 1, Number 0137: It is narrated on the authority of Anas that the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: The love of the Ansar the sign of faith and hatred against them is the sign of dissemblance.

Bk 1, Number 0138: Al−Bara reported it from the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) that he observed with regard to the Ansar, None but the believer loves them, none but the hypocrite hates them. He who loved them loved Allah and he who hated them hated Allah. I (the narrator) said: Did you hear this hadith from al−Bara'? He said: To me, he narrated it.

Bk 1, Number 0139: It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: A person who believes in Allah and the Last Day never nurses a grudge against the Ansar.

Bk 1, Number 0140: It is narrated on the authority of Abu Sa'id Khudri that the Messenger of Allah observed: The person who believes in Allah and the Last Day never nurses a grudge against the Ansar.

you have to take many lessons beta........

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aapkeay paas shaid Saudi Arabia wala chapa edition hai. Kya Hadith number batayain gay keay main check kur loon..

Any how keep remember the Hadith of Bukhari that a rebellious party / trangressors will kill Ammar bin Yasar. And now read Quran as well. This is for your guidance.

What Quran says about companions who could be transgressors:

أَلَمْ يَأْنِ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَن تَخْشَعَ قُلُوبُهُمْ لِذِكْرِ اللَّهِ وَمَا نَزَلَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ وَلَا يَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلُ فَطَالَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْأَمَدُ فَقَسَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنْهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ {16}

[Shakir 57:16] Has not the time yet come for those who believe that their hearts should be humble for the remembrance of Allah and what has come down of the truth? And that they should not be like those who were given the Book before, but the time became prolonged to them, so their hearts hardened, and most of them are transgressors.

[Yusufali 57:16] Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.

[Pickthal 57:16] Is not the time ripe for the hearts of those who believe to submit to Allah's reminder and to the truth which is revealed, that they become not as those who received the scripture of old but the term was prolonged for them and so their hearts were hardened, and many of them are evil-livers.

jahil do you even know to read english?

Allah is warning the muslims(everyone companions and ahlebayt) that: Allah is prohibiting the believers from imitating those who were given the Scriptures before them, the Jews and Christ ians. As time passed, they changed the Book of Allah that they had, and sold it for a small, miserable price. They also abandoned Allah's Book behind their back and were impressed and consumed by various opinions and false creeds. They imitated the way others behaved with the religion of Allah, making their rabbis and priests into gods beside Allah. Consequent ly, their hearts became hard and they would not accept advice; their hearts did not feel humbled .

Allah asks, ` Has not the t ime come for the believers to feel humility in their hearts by the remembrance of Allah and hearing subt le advice and the recitat ion of the Qur'an, so that they may comprehend the Qur'an, abide by it , and hear and obey.

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jahil do you even know to read english?

Allah is warning the muslims(everyone companions and ahlebayt)

You should read the Sura Mubaraka Al hadid (57:16) along with the Hadith about Hazrat Ammar bin Yassar. That's why I said that keep remembering the Hadith of Bukhari of Rebellious party/Transgressors who will martyr Hz Ammar bin Yasser. Hz Ammar bin Yasser was martyred fighting against the rebellious transgressing party of Muwaiya in battle of Safeen.

"...so their hearts hardened, and most of them are transgressors(57:16)"

Ahylebayt are وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا .and they are not Transgressors. If you have any doubt on Ahlylabayt who are they then read Sahih Muslim Hadith Al -Kisa.

And by any standard you cant put Muwaviya in Ahlybayt (even if you keep your head down and legs upside). Any Hadith has its first test of correctness is its conformance with Quran. There is whole Sura Munafaqoon in Holy Quran.

Now its up to you, how seriously you think about your beliefs. We are not playing games here. These are clear signs for thought. (when you read in Quran and Hadith about "Transgressors". )

قَدْ بَيَّنَّا الآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ {118}

(Indeed We have made the versus clear for a people who are sure.

And despite these verses and evidences if you cannot understand truth then surely you don't have any fear of Allah.

ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ {2}

[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

Edited by Zulfiqar
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You should read the Sura Mubaraka Al hadid (57:16) along with the Hadith about Hazrat Ammar bin Yassar. That's why I said that keep remembering the Hadith of Bukhari of Rebellious party/Transgressors who will martyr Hz Ammar bin Yasser. Hz Ammar bin Yasser was martyred fighting against the rebellious transgressing party of Muwaiya in battle of Safeen.

"...so their hearts hardened, and most of them are transgressors(57:16)"

Ahylebayt are وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا .and they are not Transgressors. If you have any doubt on Ahlylabayt who are they then read Sahih Muslim Hadith Al -Kisa.

And by any standard you cant put Muwaviya in Ahlybayt (even if you keep your head down and legs upside). Any Hadith has its first test of correctness is its conformance with Quran. There is whole Sura Munafaqoon in Holy Quran.

Now its up to you, how seriously you think about your beliefs. We are not playing games here. These are clear signs for thought. (when you read in Quran and Hadith about "Transgressors". )

قَدْ بَيَّنَّا الآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ {118}

(Indeed We have made the versus clear for a people who are sure.

And despite these verses and evidences if you cannot understand truth then surely you don't have any fear of Allah.

ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ {2}

[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

listen copy paster, I said you in my previous post that the verse emphasizes on "following the book of Allah and not altering it " which the ahle kitab did, And this is being refered here as (transgressors) fasiqoon.

The verses is not about those who fight ......It has another verse to solve your problem.

If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the Command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just), The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: so make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy." [surat Al-Hujarat, verses 9 and 10]

Allah described the two parties by faith and made them brothers despite the fact they fought each other and transgressed on each other. Then what about if one of them transgressed on the other thinking he is right? Does it prevent him from being an interpreter, wrong or right? "

lastly to destroy your argument let me give you a shocking fact, that the verse you used (57:17) contains the word FASIQOON(to which translkators translated as evil doers or transgressors). BUT THE HADEES OF AMMAR(RA) DOESNT CONTAIN THE WORD FASIQOON BUT IT CONTAINS BAAGHI (WHICH IS TRANSLATED AS REBELLION OR TRANSGRESSOR) .

SO MORON OPEN YOUR EYES BECAUSE THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT WORDS, IN VERSE ITS A DIFFERENT WORD AND IN HADEES ITS DIFFERENT WORD, SO EVEN IF YOU DIE BEATING YOUR CHEST NO ONE IS GOING TO BE FOOLED BY THIS DECEPTION.

AGAIN THE WORDS OF AYAH AND HADEES ARE DIFFERENT, AYAH SAYS FASIQOON, HADEES SAYS BAGHII, SO ONLY A MORON WILL USE THE VERSE ON HZ MUAWIYA(RA) .

AND THESE WORDS(BAAGHI AND FASIQ) HAVE A DIFFERENCE OF CHALK AND CHEESE

Edited by swords_of_sunnah
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If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the Command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just), The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: so make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy." [surat Al-Hujarat, verses 9 and 10]

Allah described the two parties by faith and made them brothers despite the fact they fought each other and transgressed on each other. Then what about if one of them transgressed on the other thinking he is right? Does it prevent him from being an interpreter, wrong or right? "

lastly to destroy your argument let me give you a shocking fact, that the verse you used (57:17) contains the word FASIQOON(to which translkators translated as evil doers or transgressors). BUT THE HADEES OF AMMAR(RA) DOESNT CONTAIN THE WORD FASIQOON BUT IT CONTAINS BAAGHI (WHICH IS TRANSLATED AS REBELLION OR TRANSGRESSOR) .

I just mentioned (57:16) as a general reference for those whose hearts be hardened through time. Muaviya reference is just a component of the whole message of the verse. Understand the over all Message of Quran whose verses are clear as Allah SWT already said that. But ok now i explain further:

Let me to help you with the understanding. But first I will comment on the sura Hujarat versus 9 and 10 which you replied. (Without creating any sense for them in your argument in favour of Muavia). We will discuss in Parts.

Part 1:

I read them carefully, and Subhanallah they all validate the actions taken by either Ameer ul Momineen Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib and Imam Hassan SA.

Look at Verse 9.

وَإِن طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَى فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّى تَفِيءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ فَإِن فَاءتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ وَأَقْسِطُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ {9}

[Yusufali 49:9] If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just).<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

Here note the word فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا reference to ‘transgressor’ .

Now you yourself found the word related to "Baaghi" And Hz Ali did the right thing to fight them . This just shows Ameer ul Momineen acted according to Quran.

Then verse 10.: And this shows that Imam Hassan SA acted just according to this verse, subhanallah. You yourself is showing me the verses in praise of Ahlybayt.

إِنَّمَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ إِخْوَةٌ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَ أَخَوَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ {10}

[Yusufali 49:10] The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy.

Now here you can argue that, Muwiaya is a believer also so this verse can also apply to him. That's I want to show he is not even a believer from your own book of Bukhari.

Look;

Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 197:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)."

It is also quoted by Tabari and also in Muslim there is a reference that During Muviwaya reign there was "Abuse towards Hazrat Ali" on Friday prayers. One example was of Hujar bin Addi who also opposed it and later was martyred. Also Ammar bin Yassar was Martyred by a rebellious group as mentioned in Bukhari and Muslim.

So Muawiya did both , Abuse (Fusuq) as well as Killed (doing Kufar) companions of Prophet unjustly. Hadith of Bukhari is very evident on this issue.

Part 2:

Now your confusion is (57:16) Sura Alhadid. Where you said;<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

You said: BUT THE HADEES OF AMMAR(RA) DOESNT CONTAIN THE WORD FASIQOON BUT IT CONTAINS BAAGHI (WHICH IS TRANSLATED AS REBELLION OR TRANSGRESSOR) .

My reply: I used the verse (57:16) in a general understanding about those who do 'Fasad' and Fitna'. And for an intelligent person only a sign is enough. But now as you want how Baaghi = fasiqoon. The unjust rebels / Baghis are always equal to fasiqoon who took to fight against a Khulfa Rashid.

Lets read the Hadith again from Bukhari: About Ammar bin Yassar.

Bukhari : Volume 1, Book 8, Number 438:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Ibn 'Abbas said to me and to his son 'Ali, "Go to Abu Sa'id and listen to what he narrates." So we went and found him in a garden looking after it. He picked up his Rida', wore it and sat down and started narrating till the topic of the construction of the mosque reached. He said, "We were carrying one adobe at a time while 'Ammar was carrying two. The Prophet saw him and started removing the dust from his body and said, "May Allah be Merciful to 'Ammar. He will be inviting them (i.e. his murderers, the rebellious group) to Paradise and they will invite him to Hell-fire." 'Ammar said, "I seek refuge with Allah from affliction."

You see Hadith has clearly used the word "Hell Fire" for the rebels led by Muwavia. And for Ammar they used "Paradise".

Now about word 'Fasiq'

Its absolutely clear that within Bukari that Muawviya is also Fasiq as well as Kafir.

Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 197:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)."

(As I already discussed)

Now see what is the punishment of Fasiq or Kafir, who kills Hujar Bin Udi, Ammar Bin Yassar and Muhammad bin Abi Bakar.

وَمَن يَقْتُلْ مُؤْمِنًا مُّتَعَمِّدًا فَجَزَآؤُهُ جَهَنَّمُ خَالِدًا فِيهَا وَغَضِبَ اللّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَلَعَنَهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ عَذَابًا عَظِيمًا {93}

[Shakir 4:93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.

[Yusufali 4:93] If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

[Pickthal 4:93] Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.

Indeed Quran is clear in its verses as I already referenced Quran. Allah "Curses" them. And that Curse comes in the shape of believers who curse him. The message is clear for those who has fear of Allah again according to Holy Quran.

Edited by Zulfiqar
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I just mentioned (57:16) as a general reference for those whose hearts be hardened through time. Muaviya reference is just a component of the whole message of the verse. Understand the over all Message of Quran whose verses are clear as Allah SWT already said that.But ok now i explain further:

Let me to help you with the understanding. But first I will comment on the sura Hujarat versus 9 and 10 which you replied. (Without creating any sense for them in your argument in favour of Muavia). We will discuss in Parts.

Part 1:

I read them carefully, and Subhanallah they all validate the actions taken by either Ameer ul Momineen Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib and Imam Hassan SA.

Look at Verse 9.

وَإِن طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَى فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّى تَفِيءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ فَإِن فَاءتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ وَأَقْسِطُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ {9}

[Yusufali 49:9] If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just).<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

Here note the word فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا reference to

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Part 2:

Now your confusion is (57:16) Sura Alhadid. Where you said;<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

You said: BUT THE HADEES OF AMMAR(RA) DOESNT CONTAIN THE WORD FASIQOON BUT IT CONTAINS BAAGHI (WHICH IS TRANSLATED AS REBELLION OR TRANSGRESSOR) .

My reply: I used the verse (57:16) in a general understanding about those who do 'Fasad' and Fitna'. And for an intelligent person only a sign is enough. But now as you want how Baaghi = fasiqoon. The unjust rebels / Baghis are always equal to fasiqoon who took to fight against a Khulfa Rashid.

The verse is but particular and specific not general and is about those who change the book of Allah and its hukm...

And from when ORANGES = APPLES? may be in your place but not in this world...

Lets read the Hadith again from Bukhari: About Ammar bin Yassar.

Bukhari : Volume 1, Book 8, Number 438:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Ibn 'Abbas said to me and to his son 'Ali, "Go to Abu Sa'id and listen to what he narrates." So we went and found him in a garden looking after it. He picked up his Rida', wore it and sat down and started narrating till the topic of the construction of the mosque reached. He said, "We were carrying one adobe at a time while 'Ammar was carrying two. The Prophet saw him and started removing the dust from his body and said, "May Allah be Merciful to 'Ammar. He will be inviting them (i.e. his murderers, the rebellious group) to Paradise and they will invite him to Hell-fire." 'Ammar said, "I seek refuge with Allah from affliction."

You see Hadith has clearly used the word "Hell Fire" for the rebels led by Muwavia. And for Ammar they used "Paradise".

The only problem is your ill and misunderstanding of ahadees, i wonder what if lay fools like you are given quran to understand what wil you make out of it....

Alhafith said explainaing:

"He (i.e. Ammar) was calling the other group to Jannah in the meaning he was calling them to the reason that lead to Jannah. He was calling to obey the ruler while the other group was not. Yet, they are excused as they thought they were calling for Jannah as well and had an Ijtihaad about the matter".

Hafiz ibn Hajar said that the battles between the Sahabah are based on Ijtihad and Ta'weel and the one who is right will have two rewards (and the mistaken will have a single reward), when this is the case of normal Mujtahid, then Sahabah deserve this more. ('Isabah' v 4 p 148).

BUt I know that you will continue to reject the explanation of ahadees and the correct understanding to it....so Im forced to use this hadees to make you force understand the correct concept. (NOTE IM NOT USING IT TO CRITICIZE HZ ALI(RA) BUT JUST TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR UNDERSTADING IN INCORRECT)

BUKHARI 9.14:Narrated Al−Ahnaf bin Qais: I went to help that man (i.e.`Ali), and on the way I met Abu Bakra who asked me, "Where areyou going?" I replied, "I am going to help that man." He said, "Go back, for I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'If two Muslims meet each other with their swords then (both) the killer and the killed one are in the (Hell) Fire.' I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! It is alright for the killer, but what about the killed one?' He said, 'The killed one was eager to kill his opponent."

so if you dont accpet the explanation of great scholars about the hadees which i gave then and continue with your foolish understandings then from these even hz ali(ra) is not spared with IF YOUR SAME UNDERSTANDING IS APPLIED HERE. So either quit that misunderstainding or use the same for both ahadees...(choice is yours)

Now about word 'Fasiq'

Its absolutely clear that within Bukari that Muawviya is also Fasiq as well as Kafir.

Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 197:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)."

(As I already discussed)

Now see what is the punishment of Fasiq or Kafir, who kills Hujar Bin Udi, Ammar Bin Yassar and Muhammad bin Abi Bakar.

وَمَن يَقْتُلْ مُؤْمِنًا مُّتَعَمِّدًا فَجَزَآؤُهُ جَهَنَّمُ خَالِدًا فِيهَا وَغَضِبَ اللّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَلَعَنَهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ عَذَابًا عَظِيمًا {93}

[Shakir 4:93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.

[Yusufali 4:93] If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

[Pickthal 4:93] Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.

Indeed Quran is clear in its verses as I already referenced Quran. Allah "Curses" them. And that Curse comes in the shape of believers who curse him. The message is clear for those who has fear of Allah again according to Holy Quran.

YOU AGAIN CLEVERLY MISSED WHAT QURAN SAYS..... QURAN STILL CONSIDERS THE ONE WHO TRANSGRESSED AS "BELIEVER" (QURAN IS ULTIMATE SOURCE SO STICKING TO IT IS GOLDEN RULE) SO WE STICK HERE TO THE GOLDEN RULE THAT EVEN A TRANGRESSOR IS BELIEVER AND I DONT SAY THAT BUT ITS THE QURAN WHICH SAYS SO..... SO LET SEE WHO STICK TO QURAN OR NOT.

coming back to hadees of bukhari, then you even dont know basics so i doubt you will understand....

The hadees speaks about minor sins not major ones, And these are difference of chalk and cheese between minor and major sins for example riba is shirk, but does it mean that those who did riba and did on it will Allah receive the punishment of shirk...And will never be forgiven as Allah says? no not at all.

Secondly there is not a single hadees "sahi" which shows hz muawiya(ra) cursed hz ali(ra) , And narrations of killing of hujar ibn addi comes from a person named as lut ibn yahaya abu mukhnif he is an abandoned narrator and a liar as described by hadees scholars.

BUT I HAVE EXPERIENCED YOUR STUBORRNESS SO, I KNOW YOU WILL BEHAVE IN THAT MANNER UNLESS A SHOCK IS GIVEN TO YOU SO THAT YOU CORRECT YOUR MISUNDERSTANDINGS, TAKE THIS FOR NOW.

SAHI BUKHARI 9.14:Narrated Al Ahnaf bin Qais: I went to help that man (i.e.,`Ali), and on the way I met Abu Bakra who asked me, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I am going to help that man." He said, "Go back, for I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'If two Muslims meet each other with their swords then (both) the killer and the killed one are in the (Hell) Fire.' I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! It is alright for the killer, but what about the killed one?' He said, 'The killed one was eager to kill his opponent."

LASTLY YOU DIDNT QUOTE THE VERSE BEFORE THE ONE YOU QUOTED:

SHAKIR: And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a convenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise. (4:92)

Hz muawiyah(ra) though was incorrect but the reason for which is fought was just, i.e qisas for his brothers blood. He didnt fight for any inappropriate reason but in demand of qisas which was his right as ordered by Allah himself. THUS ITS COUNTED IN HIS WRONG IJTIHAAD BECAUSE HE FOUGHT FOR A VALID REASON BUT WAS WRONG. THUS WILL GET ONE REWARD.

005.032

YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land

Here Allah says that killing a person is permissible if its for a murder(qisas). SO though hz muawiya(ra) was wrong in his ijtihad , but he demand was not unlawful and he did what was Allowed in quran. i.e killing he culprits involved in the martydom of his brother. But yes he was wrong because he should have waited for the caliph to do justice.

Edited by swords_of_sunnah
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my dear brother (sword of sunnah),

i believe i have made my point clear. and i have written with the truth in my heart some times after praying. I have visited the graves of Hujar bin Adi in Damascus, although for Ammar bin Yassar i could not travel in syria much. Both are Sahabi-e-Rasool. And i observed the people in syria both sunni and shia respect for these companions of Prophet SAW.

you have also agreed to it somewhat that some sahabas had erred in their ijtihad. after this i dont need to say further. One can only pray for those who have erred.

As a muslim and believer (under Sura Hujarat verses 9&10, which u mentioned earlier) we are all Muslim Brothers. And by persistently arguing with you i have sort of developed soft corner for you as well. As some time i laugh loudly on your innocent replies...like the one you gave about the "abridged edition" of Sahih Muslim in another topic.

you will see me on other topics and other forums soon.

Wsalam.

Edited by Zulfiqar
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my dear brother (sword of sunnah),

you have also agreed to it somewhat that some sahabas had erred in their ijtihad. after this i dont need to say further. One can only pray for those who have erred.

I HAVE agreed? lol The whole ahlulsunnah agrees this..... That manier times various sahaba(ra) have done wrong ijtihad... AND DONT WORRY EVEN FOR THAT THEY WILL GET ONE REWARD INSHALLAH. ALHAMDULILAH THE HADEES FROM BUKHARI WHCIH I USED SEEMS TO HAVE TREATED YOU, SO DONT FORGET TO PRAY IN FAVOUR OF EVERY SAHABI AND DONOT CARRY HATRED FOR ANY OF THEM.

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